Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Amberexile » March 12th, 2018, 11:57 am

A few facts that may help -.

The FA recorded that Hayes registration with Wycombe Wanderers was cancelled by mutual consent on 29/08/2017

The FA have never recorded Hayes as being registered with Hemel Hempstead

While the FIFA regulations allow for the registration of players outside the registration (transfer) windows where the contract has expired prior to the end of a registration period, they also state that at the very latest, the ITC must be requested by the new association on the last day of the registration period of the new association.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Stan A. Einstein » March 12th, 2018, 12:53 pm

Amberexile wrote:A few facts that may help -.

The FA recorded that Hayes registration with Wycombe Wanderers was cancelled by mutual consent on 29/08/2017

The FA have never recorded Hayes as being registered with Hemel Hempstead

While the FIFA regulations allow for the registration of players outside the registration (transfer) windows where the contract has expired prior to the end of a registration period, they also state that at the very latest, the ITC must be requested by the new association on the last day of the registration period of the new association.


The fact is for some reason he was not permitted to play for Newport County until the opening of the Transfer window. Either he was registered for Wycombe or Hemel or the ITC was refused because a) He had not fulfilled his contract obligations or b) there was a dispute between the two clubs involved in the Transfer. In addition there is some other regulation, which would of been breached had Hayes appeared for County.

Assuming you are correct that rules out him being registered for either Wycombe or Hemel. It would also rule out ITC. If his contract was cancelled by mutual consent he can't be held not to have fulfilled it. Further as he was not registered there can't be a dispute between the clubs as only one club is involved.

Which means that there are now a number possibilities.

Firstly we fell foul of another regulation. Again this does not mitigate that the club did not check with the FA.

Secondly the FA withheld ITC of a complaint by Wycombe. Looking at the FIFA regulations and European Union law the FA were acting ultra vires. Again a matter the club should have in any event checked.

Thirdly Paul Hayes was more seriously injured than was admitted and the club have covered this up.

Fourthly Amber you could be wrong about his registration status. Although if you are in possession of the FA confirmed status of Paul Hayes registration being cancelled as opposed to his contract being annulled this is not possible. The reason I ask about this is going back to Kevin Feely. His contract was ended by mutual consent with Newport County. That was to allow him to return to Ireland and play GAA. It seems to me had County cancelled his registration as opposed to his contract there would have been nothing to prevent Kevin pocketing his signing on fee had another League side wished to sign him in lieu of any transfer fee. My understanding is that it is normal practice for clubs to hold to players registration when they leave the game early to prevent this abuse. Are you sure this is not what Wycombe did?

I ask this not because I want to catch you out but simply because I would like to know the truth. It would explain why Hemel thought they had signed him, why all the reputable web-sites thought Hemel had also. The truth is the truth,it's fairly easy to figure out when firms, clubs or individuals are being 'economical' less easy is actually knowing what is the actual truth.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Ado » March 12th, 2018, 1:59 pm

Crikey - what's the point in going on and on and on about who's right. We all know there were problems, he's now in the side and he's scoring goals - that's all that matters. This thread is supposed to be a discussion about Saturday's game - everyone grow up.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Amberexile » March 12th, 2018, 2:08 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amberexile wrote:A few facts that may help -.

The FA recorded that Hayes registration with Wycombe Wanderers was cancelled by mutual consent on 29/08/2017

The FA have never recorded Hayes as being registered with Hemel Hempstead

While the FIFA regulations allow for the registration of players outside the registration (transfer) windows where the contract has expired prior to the end of a registration period, they also state that at the very latest, the ITC must be requested by the new association on the last day of the registration period of the new association.


The fact is for some reason he was not permitted to play for Newport County until the opening of the Transfer window. Either he was registered for Wycombe or Hemel or the ITC was refused because a) He had not fulfilled his contract obligations or b) there was a dispute between the two clubs involved in the Transfer. In addition there is some other regulation, which would of been breached had Hayes appeared for County.

Assuming you are correct that rules out him being registered for either Wycombe or Hemel. It would also rule out ITC. If his contract was cancelled by mutual consent he can't be held not to have fulfilled it. Further as he was not registered there can't be a dispute between the clubs as only one club is involved.

Which means that there are now a number possibilities.

Firstly we fell foul of another regulation. Again this does not mitigate that the club did not check with the FA.

Secondly the FA withheld ITC of a complaint by Wycombe. Looking at the FIFA regulations and European Union law the FA were acting ultra vires. Again a matter the club should have in any event checked.

Thirdly Paul Hayes was more seriously injured than was admitted and the club have covered this up.

Fourthly Amber you could be wrong about his registration status. Although if you are in possession of the FA confirmed status of Paul Hayes registration being cancelled as opposed to his contract being annulled this is not possible. The reason I ask about this is going back to Kevin Feely. His contract was ended by mutual consent with Newport County. That was to allow him to return to Ireland and play GAA. It seems to me had County cancelled his registration as opposed to his contract there would have been nothing to prevent Kevin pocketing his signing on fee had another League side wished to sign him in lieu of any transfer fee. My understanding is that it is normal practice for clubs to hold to players registration when they leave the game early to prevent this abuse. Are you sure this is not what Wycombe did?

I ask this not because I want to catch you out but simply because I would like to know the truth. It would explain why Hemel thought they had signed him, why all the reputable web-sites thought Hemel had also. The truth is the truth,it's fairly easy to figure out when firms, clubs or individuals are being 'economical' less easy is actually knowing what is the actual truth.


The heading under which Paul Hayes appears in the official FA month;y registration documentation for August 2017 is "List of Players under Written Contract Whose Registrations have been Cancelled by Mutual Consent Between 01/08/2017 and 31/08/2017". So I think it is safe to say that his registration was cancelled by Wycombe.

The same FA documentation for August, September, October, November and December 2017 makes not mention of him being registered by Hemel.

The point regarding ICT is that according to FIFA regulations, ICT can only be requested during the registration period so although Paul Hayes was an unregistered player, the FAW could not request ICT from the FA until January when the next registration period opened.

It does seem an bizarre that he could have signed for any club under the control of the FA but not for a foreign club such as ourselves. I haven't checked whether Triangle is correct about this having changed since last season.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Stan A. Einstein » March 12th, 2018, 3:03 pm

Not only bizarre but any such regulation would infringe on EU restraint of trade laws. In terms whilst it is possible to prevent a person working in some instances, it is not possible/lawful to say you can work in England but you can't work in Wales. Trying to solve this it may be that whatever the 'red tape' that prevented Paul Hayes from signing for Hemel was applied equally to Newport. Again this is only an explanation which fits the facts we know.

Hayes breaks with Wycombe on the basis he has retired. The FA hold up his registration with Hemel when Wycombe point out that Hayes had acted in bad faith. If I have a contract with you and you agree to void it because I lie to you about my personal circumstances I can still be in breach of the original contract. Hayes then contacts Flynn and omitting to inform him of the difficulties. County sign Hayes without checking and the FA simply fail to issue an ITC under the heading of a} Hayes has not fulfilled his contractual obligations with Wycombe.

This gets more bizarre by the minute. I do not say that my explanation is correct merely that it fits the facts as we know them.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Amberexile » March 12th, 2018, 3:22 pm

I'm afraid that the evidence doesn't support that retirement theory.

On 30th August, Hayes was quoted as saying “I don’t know what’s next right now – all I want to do is play on as long as I can, and I still feel I can play. It needs to be the right situation, so I’ll have a good chat with my family and work things out."

He clearly intended to carry on playing and seems to have left Wycombe on friendly terms, their website headline at the time being "Good luck Paul: Striker leaves by mutual consent"

I believe that it is more probable that the FIFA regulations, as drafted, do inadvertently breach EU law. This could be easily changed by the exception for players' registrations between windows being added to the section relating to ITC. It seems to me that a simple oversight in the drafting of regulations has placed Hayes and a number of other players in an impossible situation.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Stan A. Einstein » March 12th, 2018, 3:43 pm

Amberexile wrote:I'm afraid that the evidence doesn't support that retirement theory.

On 30th August, Hayes was quoted as saying “I don’t know what’s next right now – all I want to do is play on as long as I can, and I still feel I can play. It needs to be the right situation, so I’ll have a good chat with my family and work things out."

He clearly intended to carry on playing and seems to have left Wycombe on friendly terms, their website headline at the time being "Good luck Paul: Striker leaves by mutual consent"

I believe that it is more probable that the FIFA regulations, as drafted, do inadvertently breach EU law. This could be easily changed by the exception for players' registrations between windows being added to the section relating to ITC. It seems to me that a simple oversight in the drafting of regulations has placed Hayes and a number of other players in an impossible situation.



Although what was the red tape which held up the move to Hemel. Another problem seems to me that if there were no contractual dispute then the FIFA regulations would not apply in any event. I agree that the FIFA Regs are probably unlawful per se.

It is bizarre. More so because Paul Hayes thanked County for not terminating his contract when he was at fault. We know that the registration was annulled by mutual consent. We know it is dated 29 August. If it was dated that date and sent hard copy the following day, Wednesday 30th of August it is entirely possible that the FA would not have received the documentation until Friday 1 September. The transfer window being closed. It is of now consequence until......

Paul tries to sign for another club. Which we know he doesn't do until well into September.

Again it fits the facts.Again it may not be correct.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Amberexile » March 12th, 2018, 4:29 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amberexile wrote:I'm afraid that the evidence doesn't support that retirement theory.

On 30th August, Hayes was quoted as saying “I don’t know what’s next right now – all I want to do is play on as long as I can, and I still feel I can play. It needs to be the right situation, so I’ll have a good chat with my family and work things out."

He clearly intended to carry on playing and seems to have left Wycombe on friendly terms, their website headline at the time being "Good luck Paul: Striker leaves by mutual consent"

I believe that it is more probable that the FIFA regulations, as drafted, do inadvertently breach EU law. This could be easily changed by the exception for players' registrations between windows being added to the section relating to ITC. It seems to me that a simple oversight in the drafting of regulations has placed Hayes and a number of other players in an impossible situation.



Although what was the red tape which held up the move to Hemel. Another problem seems to me that if there were no contractual dispute then the FIFA regulations would not apply in any event. I agree that the FIFA Regs are probably unlawful per se.

It is bizarre. More so because Paul Hayes thanked County for not terminating his contract when he was at fault. We know that the registration was annulled by mutual consent. We know it is dated 29 August. If it was dated that date and sent hard copy the following day, Wednesday 30th of August it is entirely possible that the FA would not have received the documentation until Friday 1 September. The transfer window being closed. It is of now consequence until......

Paul tries to sign for another club. Which we know he doesn't do until well into September.

Again it fits the facts.Again it may not be correct.


Of course we can make up theories all we like without all of the facts I guess we'll never really know.

29 August is the date on the documentation issued by the FA so is their date, it is mostly done electronically so hard copy delay isn't a factor and if that was the case, it would have been included on the September list.

having read the FIFA regulations relating to ITC, in my opinion they are badly drafted (no surprise there, especially given my views on much of the drafting I come across).

There is a system that handles the process known as Transfer Matching System (TMS) ironically defined as a web-based data information system with the primary objective of simplifying the process of international player transfers as well as improving transparency and the flow of information.

The FAW have to enter into TMS their dates for their registration periods (transfer windows).

The FIFA regulations clearly state that "At the very latest, the ITC must be requested by the new association in TMS on
the last day of the registration period of the new association."

As we wanted to register Hayes between transfer windows it would hardly be surprising if the system rejected the ITC request.

Maybe everybody acted in good faith and the system rejected the ITC request. If so, we should be making representation to FIFA via the FAW to get it changed.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Exile 1976 » March 12th, 2018, 4:33 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amberexile wrote:I'm afraid that the evidence doesn't support that retirement theory.

On 30th August, Hayes was quoted as saying “I don’t know what’s next right now – all I want to do is play on as long as I can, and I still feel I can play. It needs to be the right situation, so I’ll have a good chat with my family and work things out."

He clearly intended to carry on playing and seems to have left Wycombe on friendly terms, their website headline at the time being "Good luck Paul: Striker leaves by mutual consent"

I believe that it is more probable that the FIFA regulations, as drafted, do inadvertently breach EU law. This could be easily changed by the exception for players' registrations between windows being added to the section relating to ITC. It seems to me that a simple oversight in the drafting of regulations has placed Hayes and a number of other players in an impossible situation.



Although what was the red tape which held up the move to Hemel. Another problem seems to me that if there were no contractual dispute then the FIFA regulations would not apply in any event. I agree that the FIFA Regs are probably unlawful per se.

It is bizarre. More so because Paul Hayes thanked County for not terminating his contract when he was at fault. We know that the registration was annulled by mutual consent. We know it is dated 29 August. If it was dated that date and sent hard copy the following day, Wednesday 30th of August it is entirely possible that the FA would not have received the documentation until Friday 1 September. The transfer window being closed. It is of now consequence until......

Paul tries to sign for another club. Which we know he doesn't do until well into September.

Again it fits the facts.Again it may not be correct.



I don't think Hayes thanked the club for not terminating his contract as it was his fault did he? Didn't he just thank the club for not terminating his contract as we'd have been within our rights to ????
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Cornish Exile » March 12th, 2018, 8:09 pm

Harps62 wrote:
Cornish Exile wrote:Stan accuses someone of arrogance!!!

For goodness sake Cornish.
Get real
Somebody states "end of discussion " on a forum and you are happy with that.
Makes you a total plonker. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Is this the same Harps who regularly ends discussion on the M o M threads.

Maybe, you would now like to withdraw your childish insult.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Harps62 » March 12th, 2018, 8:22 pm

Thanks Cornish
I actually asked for discussion on MOM forum this week.
Just cheered me up no end.
Much appreciated.
I just always ask "please keep to the thread".
If you can find me stating on any thread.
"End of discussion" happy to withdraw my comment if it will keep you happy.
By the way none of this has anything to do with the thread.
Also to finish off if you think a contributor states "End of Discussion on a thread is acceptable you really are a plonker.
If you can find myself stating those exact words please call me a plonker by all means.
I wont loose no sleep over it for sure.
Cheers
Harps.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Cornish Exile » March 12th, 2018, 8:55 pm

Harps62 wrote:Thanks Cornish
I actually asked for discussion on MOM forum this week.
Just cheered me up no end.
Much appreciated.
I just always ask "please keep to the thread".
If you can find me stating on any thread.
"End of discussion" happy to withdraw my comment if it will keep you happy.
By the way none of this has anything to do with the thread.
Also to finish off if you think a contributor states "End of Discussion on a thread is acceptable you really are a plonker.
If you can find myself stating those exact words please call me a plonker by all means.
I wont loose no sleep over it for sure.
Cheers
Harps.


Not the exact words, but "that's it closed now" has exactly the same meaning.

I'm not in the habit of insulting people. As you so often say, "it's only a bit of fun"
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Harps62 » March 12th, 2018, 9:03 pm

Are you serious
"Its closed now" means the vote for the games MOM is now closed.
Are you for real?
Seriously if you think that closing the vote is the same as "end of discussion am more than happy to call you a Plonker Cornish.
Cheered me up no end.
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Cornish Exile » March 12th, 2018, 9:25 pm

Surely by announcing "it's closed now" denies posters further participation. Or have I got that wrong as well?
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Re: Grandstand: EXILES @ Yeovil

Postby Stan A. Einstein » March 12th, 2018, 9:55 pm

Cornish Exile wrote:Surely by announcing "it's closed now" denies posters further participation. Or have I got that wrong as well?


It does. Mind you you only get fifteen hours to vote on a Government. Are you really suggesting that MoM polls are kept open Sine Die? :?
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