Stan A. Einstein wrote:

Amberexile wrote:But surely it is better for the workers to hold the balance of control rather than the emoloyers,.

Two things,

I finally got to a post office today, and bought a stamp. My apologies for the further delay.

As a socialist I am more concerned with the rights of workers on zero hours contracts who have to pay too much to watch football rather than the overpaid prima donnas who get a living and a bloody good one, out of kicking a football.
Reading your comments this evening I suggest drinking lots of water and trying to get a good night's sleep.

I think most would agree with concerns about low pay. The problem is we live in an unjust society and one of the indicators of that is wages. My eldest son is a hospital consultant ( in fact he deputised as the club doctor on a recent Boxing Day fixture ) , for most of his junior years in medicine he earned very little . I think we all agree about where a doctors contribution to society comes in the scale of things as compared say to footballers but the problem is how do you address the unfairness in a capitalist society?

And of course the example we have of supporters being in control brings us back to where we started with supporters wanting the manager sacked leading to notice being served on his contract, the club losing the longest serving manager who may have used his knowledge of players' contracts to "poach" their captain causing those same supporters to be up in arms when it is their own fault.

Maybe not the best lunatics to put in charge of the asylum

Presumably if he hadn't got the club to agree to a non-promotion release clause, he could have left a year or more ago and the supporters wouldn't have had the benefit of his contributions to two successive playoff finishes.

Does Brexit have any implications for the Bosman rules?

George Street-Bridge wrote:
Does Brexit have any implications for the Bosman rules?

Interesting question. And at the risk of sounding like a lawyer I will answer as best I can. Although this really is a yes and no answer.

Bosman is a European Union case. It helps enshrine workers rights in the European Court of Justice (ECJ). Those of you who follow the Brexit negotiations will know that one of Treezas red lines is that the UK will not be bound by the ECJ. So post March next year the simple answer is Bosman no longer applies.

However it needs to be remembered that Bosman had two effects on British football. One was the freedom to walk away from a club at the end of a contract, ie the club could not hold on to a players registration. The second was that it was unlawful to prevent any EU citizen plying his or her trade anywhere within the Union. Before I deal with how both limbs in turn there are two more potential difficulties. Firstly as some of the pilitical junkies will know the UK has asked for a transition period. Whatever the Government says nobody has the slightest idea how long that will last, during which Bosman will continue to comply. There is also 'The Great Repeal Bill' remember that? When much of European law will be downloaded as UK law. Will Bosman simply become part of UK law? If I said I was sure either way I would be lying but here's my best guess.

Firstly as the Govt has promised to protect worker rights in line with EU legislation I think it very unlikely that players walking away at the end of their contracts will change.

Secondly, EU footballers will if freedom of movement is curtailed will no longer have an automatic right to play in the UK. Therefore there is a realistic chance that more home grown players will grace the Premier League. Although if you have pots of cash and football does, coming to the UK has never been a problem.

Finally Brexit is such a total mess you and me George will be long gone before anything changes.

George Street-Bridge wrote: Does Brexit have any implications for the Bosman rules?

I believe not.

Though Bosman was a consequence of European law, the Bosman ruling is governed by FIFA and FA/FAW/SFA rules, not by European law.

However, Brexit might well have an effect on transfer fees and who can be transferred into the UK (based on a smaller pool of players eligible once freedom of movement under EU rules no longer applies to the UK). But I'm betting the Premier League will lobby hard to overcome any reintroduction of work permit restrictions.

But I can foresee battles between the Premier League and the FA, as the FA may wish to push harder for ways to get home-grown player quotas strengthened. One outlier possibility is the Premier League resisting that and preventing their players playing for England I suppose. More likely is compromise though.

What would bother me is any scope for small clubs losing the right to compensation when young players who have come through their youth system decide to move on.

I wouldn't trust this government as far as I could spit on maintaining workers' rights. Or anything else, for that matter.

George Street-Bridge wrote:What would bother me is any scope for small clubs losing the right to compensation when young players who have come through their youth system decide to move on.

I wouldn't trust this government as far as I could spit on maintaining workers' rights. Or anything else, for that matter.

The only thing I’d trust them on is being untrustworthy

George Street-Bridge wrote:
I wouldn't trust this government as far as I could spit on maintaining workers' rights. Or anything else, for that matter.

Whilst I would agree generally in this instance I don't think you need worry. The right in question is not to your job but to leave it. Thus Bosman equates to the free market. From a neo liberal perspective it is simply making hiring and firing easier.

Whilst I am pro European and very much a remainer, I am aware that the objection to Europe on the left of political thought is not an objection to integration per say, but that the EU is a right wing free market club.

NearlyDead wrote:

George Street-Bridge wrote: Does Brexit have any implications for the Bosman rules?

I believe not.

Though Bosman was a consequence of European law, the Bosman ruling is governed by FIFA and FA/FAW/SFA rules, not by European law.

However, Brexit might well have an effect on transfer fees and who can be transferred into the UK (based on a smaller pool of players eligible once freedom of movement under EU rules no longer applies to the UK). But I'm betting the Premier League will lobby hard to overcome any reintroduction of work permit restrictions.

But I can foresee battles between the Premier League and the FA, as the FA may wish to push harder for ways to get home-grown player quotas strengthened. One outlier possibility is the Premier League resisting that and preventing their players playing for England I suppose. More likely is compromise though.

I am not sure that is strictly correct. Within the EU to restrict access to workers as defined by the constitutional Articles, protocols and directives would be unlawful. FIFA, UEFA and the FA make rules not laws. Once out of the EU the UK as a sovereign nation could if it so wished ban all foreign nationals from working in the UK. As a result the Premier League would have to comprise of UK nationals only and FIFA, UEFA and the FA would be powerless.

However if I am correct in thinking that the thrust of your argument is that money talks and as such nothing will change, I think it very likely that you are spot on.

You may have misunderstood me, or I was unclear.

Bosman is more than about free movement between EU countries. It is principally about what happens at the end of a contract, which is the issue GSB raised and I was initially answering. It is those end-of-contract aspects that are governed by FIFA and home association rules, not the movement within the EU – which of course FIFA and the home associations have no say in.

Those end-of-contract aspects will not change because of Brexit. So moves like Moore-Taylor's would still happen after Brexit. But the ability to move freely between EU countries and the UK when the contract ends will change in accordance with home country laws if/when we leave the single market/customs union/ECHR.

So, Bosman and end-of-contract domestic movement aside, after Brexit is fully implemented, the rules governing transfers from the EU to the UK will probably revert to the current quota system used for football transfers from foreign lands other than the EU (which are based mostly on appearances for international sides IIRC).

On the basis of supply and demand, clubs will likely have to pay more for transfers in from a more restricted EU player market. And there will likely be no more signing of teenage talent from Europe by top PL clubs, since those teenagers will unlikely have the international appearances required by existing UK law.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

NearlyDead wrote:

George Street-Bridge wrote: Does Brexit have any implications for the Bosman rules?

I believe not.

Though Bosman was a consequence of European law, the Bosman ruling is governed by FIFA and FA/FAW/SFA rules, not by European law.

However, Brexit might well have an effect on transfer fees and who can be transferred into the UK (based on a smaller pool of players eligible once freedom of movement under EU rules no longer applies to the UK). But I'm betting the Premier League will lobby hard to overcome any reintroduction of work permit restrictions.

But I can foresee battles between the Premier League and the FA, as the FA may wish to push harder for ways to get home-grown player quotas strengthened. One outlier possibility is the Premier League resisting that and preventing their players playing for England I suppose. More likely is compromise though.

I am not sure that is strictly correct. Within the EU to restrict access to workers as defined by the constitutional Articles, protocols and directives would be unlawful. FIFA, UEFA and the FA make rules not laws. Once out of the EU the UK as a sovereign nation could if it so wished ban all foreign nationals from working in the UK. As a result the Premier League would have to comprise of UK nationals only and FIFA, UEFA and the FA would be powerless.

However if I am correct in thinking that the thrust of your argument is that money talks and as such nothing will change, I think it very likely that you are spot on.

There are already rules in place governing the issuing of work permits to non-EU footballers. These were changed in 2015 and seem more complicated now depending on FIFA ranking of countries and are of course different for U21 players.

NearlyDead wrote:You may have misunderstood me, or I was unclear.

Bosman is more than about free movement between EU countries. It is principally about what happens at the end of a contract, which is the issue GSB raised and I was initially answering. It is those end-of-contract aspects that are governed by FIFA and home association rules, not the movement within the EU – which of course FIFA and the home associations have no say in.

Those end-of-contract aspects will not change because of Brexit. So moves like Moore-Taylor's would still happen after Brexit. But the ability to move freely between EU countries and the UK when the contract ends will change in accordance with home country laws if/when we leave the single market/customs union/ECHR.

So, Bosman and end-of-contract domestic movement aside, after Brexit is fully implemented, the rules governing transfers from the EU to the UK will probably revert to the current quota system used for football transfers from foreign lands other than the EU (which are based mostly on appearances for international sides IIRC).

On the basis of supply and demand, clubs will likely have to pay more for transfers in from a more restricted EU player market. And there will likely be no more signing of teenage talent from Europe by top PL clubs, since those teenagers will unlikely have the international appearances required by existing UK law.

I hope I didn't misunderstand you. If I was unclear my apologies. On the main points I think we agree entirely. On the technicalities of European Union law we might not fully agree but I am sure nobody who understands EU law would ever argue that there isn't room for disagreement.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

Cornish Exile wrote:Exeter City captain Jordan Moore-Taylor has exercised a "non-promotion release" clause (never heard of that one before) and joined former manager Paul Tisdale at M K Dons on a free.

The Exeter fans are furious.

They are right to be furious. Football has become a circus. I mean that in the truest sense of the word not in the pejorative sense. When I started watching football the bulk of teams at our level were made up of local lads who would often spend an entire career at a club. I can still probably name ten regulars from 40 years ago, not so from 5 years ago. Players move from club to club more often than some people change their socks.

You can't blame the players because we all go to work to make a living, but in truth those of us of a certain age know something about our game has gone for good. Don't believe me? From memory name the starting eleven for Terry Butcher's first game in charge at Cambridge United?

And just from memory, honest our 12 at Walsall in the season of triumph. No doubt someone will check.

Plumley, Byrne, Walden, Oakes, Davies, Baily, Lowndes, Vaughan, Tynan, Aldridge, Gwyther, Moore.

Oh what a team that was Stan!

I blame big clubs and their over-flowing academies. When I think of John Aldridge's route to play for Liverpool, then the John Aldridge of today would have signed up at Liverpool academy for silly money while he was still in school, either made it at Liverpool and earned millions or he would have been released from his £10k a week contract and then if his attitude was such would say "I ain't running around for Newport County for £1k a week". I think there's a lot of youngsters in that situation who think they've made it because they're at a big academy and the inflated wages there puts pressure on the smaller clubs to increase their wages.

I mistakenly thought when Abramovich bought Chelsea that he can only pay silly money to 11 players and the rest won't be affected but of course the knock-on effect is there.

Who knows what the answer is! I guess for us what's important on our limited budget is that we sign players with the right attitude irrespective of what we can or can't afford to pay them.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

Cornish Exile wrote:Exeter City captain Jordan Moore-Taylor has exercised a "non-promotion release" clause (never heard of that one before) and joined former manager Paul Tisdale at M K Dons on a free.

The Exeter fans are furious.

They are right to be furious. Football has become a circus. I mean that in the truest sense of the word not in the pejorative sense. When I started watching football the bulk of teams at our level were made up of local lads who would often spend an entire career at a club. I can still probably name ten regulars from 40 years ago, not so from 5 years ago. Players move from club to club more often than some people change their socks.

You can't blame the players because we all go to work to make a living, but in truth those of us of a certain age know something about our game has gone for good. Don't believe me? From memory name the starting eleven for Terry Butcher's first game in charge at Cambridge United?

And just from memory, honest our 12 at Walsall in the season of triumph. No doubt someone will check.

Plumley, Byrne, Walden, Oakes, Davies, Baily, Lowndes, Vaughan, Tynan, Aldridge, Gwyther, Moore.

You're spot on about the Butcher 11, doubt he even remembers it, and forgive me if I'm wrong on this or if someone else in this thread has mentioned it, but wasn't it Relish at left back, not Byrne.....

Yes,Byrne left at the end of 78/79 season.