Re: TV money

4
Amber Nation wrote:I think we picked up £170K for the two semi-final games from the broadcasts, HOWEVER, I'm pretty sure the FA rules are different for the final and I think we only get 25% of the gate with NO TV money.
Where do you get this information from?

Re: TV money

6
EFL Rules and Regulations relating to the Play Off Final

7.4.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35;

7.4.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be divided equally between the two Clubs taking part in each Final Play-Off match.

7.5 Where spectators are admitted to the Final Play-Off matches as part of hospitality arrangements by The League then the income from such hospitality arrangements shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Levy.

7.6 Income derived from programme sales and perimeter advertising after paying thereout all attributable costs shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy.

7.7 Any income or costs which are attributable to more than one match, including without limitation the Stadium hire costs, will be apportioned pro rata to gate receipts.

7.8 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. No facility fees shall be payable to Clubs.

Re: TV money

7
Amber Nation wrote:EFL Rules and Regulations relating to the Play Off Final

7.4.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35;

7.4.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be divided equally between the two Clubs taking part in each Final Play-Off match.

7.5 Where spectators are admitted to the Final Play-Off matches as part of hospitality arrangements by The League then the income from such hospitality arrangements shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Levy.

7.6 Income derived from programme sales and perimeter advertising after paying thereout all attributable costs shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy.

7.7 Any income or costs which are attributable to more than one match, including without limitation the Stadium hire costs, will be apportioned pro rata to gate receipts.

7.8 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. No facility fees shall be payable to Clubs.
To be clear, I am not sure. However if 7.8 means that no television money is payed to the clubs then the wording 'any match' would seem to cover the two semi-final ties.

Re: TV money

8
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amber Nation wrote:EFL Rules and Regulations relating to the Play Off Final

7.4.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35;

7.4.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be divided equally between the two Clubs taking part in each Final Play-Off match.

7.5 Where spectators are admitted to the Final Play-Off matches as part of hospitality arrangements by The League then the income from such hospitality arrangements shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Levy.

7.6 Income derived from programme sales and perimeter advertising after paying thereout all attributable costs shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy.

7.7 Any income or costs which are attributable to more than one match, including without limitation the Stadium hire costs, will be apportioned pro rata to gate receipts.

7.8 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. No facility fees shall be payable to Clubs.
To be clear, I am not sure. However if 7.8 means that no television money is payed to the clubs then the wording 'any match' would seem to cover the two semi-final ties.
Are you not sure that you're sure or are you sure that you're not sure? :cheers: My reading of that is there's no TV money.

Re: TV money

10
County Exile wrote:My reading (although not entirely clear) was that tv money is paid but is entirely separate and not taken into account when working out the distribution of match money between the 4 clubs under the above rules.
It is one of the two. I have no idea which.

Re: TV money

13
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amber Nation wrote:EFL Rules and Regulations relating to the Play Off Final

7.4.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35;

7.4.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be divided equally between the two Clubs taking part in each Final Play-Off match.

7.5 Where spectators are admitted to the Final Play-Off matches as part of hospitality arrangements by The League then the income from such hospitality arrangements shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Levy.

7.6 Income derived from programme sales and perimeter advertising after paying thereout all attributable costs shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy.

7.7 Any income or costs which are attributable to more than one match, including without limitation the Stadium hire costs, will be apportioned pro rata to gate receipts.

7.8 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. No facility fees shall be payable to Clubs.
To be clear, I am not sure. However if 7.8 means that no television money is payed to the clubs then the wording 'any match' would seem to cover the two semi-final ties.
I don't think that is the case when you read the whole of the regulations. 'any match' refers to the three play off finals (one for each division) as this is in the drafting under the heading for section 7 which deals exclusively with the playoff finals. Section 6 covers the semi-finals in which the television broadcasting and facility fees are covered in 6.4 with similar but different wording.

Read as a whole they make more sense despite the probable errors in 7.4. Seeing them properly formatted helps understanding as well. Although they could be much clearer.

Sky Bet EFL Play-Off Rules 2018/19

1 Definitions

1.1 Throughout these Rules, unless the context otherwise requires: -

‘The League’ means The Football League Limited.
‘the Board’ means the Board of Directors of The League.
‘the Clubs’ means those Clubs qualifying for the Play-Off Competition each Season.
'the Play-Off Competition' means the knockout competition held at the end of each Season to determine the final Club qualifying for promotion to the next highest Division, or in the case of the Championship, the Premier League.
‘these Rules’ means these Rules of the Play-Off Competition as from time to time altered.
‘the Regulations’ means the Regulations of The League from time to time in force.
2 Competition Format

2.1 At the end of each Season, the four highest placed Clubs in each division not gaining automatic promotion shall enter the Play-Off Competition.

2.2 The Semi-Final matches shall be played over two legs.

2.3 In the Semi-Finals, the two teams who finished in the First and Second Play-Off place in The League, will play away from home in the first leg against the Fourth and Third placed team respectively. These pairings will be reversed for the second leg.

2.4 In the Semi-Finals, the first leg shall be of 90 (ninety) minutes duration. If the aggregate scores are level at the end of 90 (ninety) minutes in the second leg, extra time will be played. If the scores remain level at the end of extra time the tie will be determined by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with procedures as approved by the International Football Association Board (IFAB).

2.5 In the Final, if the score is level at the end of 90 (ninety) minutes, extra time will be played, followed if necessary by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with procedures as approved by IFAB.

2.6 Fourth Substitute. Notwithstanding the provisions of Regulation 33.4, where any Semi-Final second leg and/or the Final match goes to extra time then each Club participating in that match will be permitted to use an additional substitute (in extra time only).

2.7 Use of Technology. Where any venue at which a match is to be played has:

3 Goal line technology system installed; and / or

3.1.1 such equipment as is necessary to enable the use of video assistant referees,

in compliance with the Laws of the Game, The League shall be entitled to determine whether any such system is used, and its decision shall be final.

4 Tickets

4.1 Where a Home Club admits any person to the ground as part of its hospitality arrangements or to an executive box and there is no separate charge for admission, each person is treated as having bought a ticket at the highest price payable for a ticket for that match. 4.2 A maximum of 250 complimentary tickets, excluding those covered under Rule 3.4, and any tickets required to be made available under any commercial agreement entered into by The League, may be issued. Any tickets in excess of this number must be accounted for at the appropriate rate.

4.3 The Visiting Club shall have the right to claim 2,000 tickets for use by its supporters (or such number as represents 10% of all tickets reserved or otherwise sold in advance, if less than 2,000). The following conditions shall apply:

4.3.1 unless otherwise mutually agreed in writing, all tickets shall be on sale or return basis;

4.3.2 payments for tickets sold by a Visiting Club together with details of tickets sold and the return of unsold tickets, must be made to the Home Club within four days of the date of the match; and

4.3.3 a minimum of 10% of the total disabled spectator accommodation must be made available to disabled supporters of the Visiting Club.

4.4 A Visiting Club shall also be entitled to one third of the seats usually reserved and known as the ‘Home and Visiting Directors' Seats’, up to a maximum of 24 seats.

4.5 The Home Club may not reduce normal League admission charges without the written agreement of the Away Club. Any disagreement between the Clubs shall be determined by The League. 4.6 For the purposes of Rule 3.5, ‘reduce’ shall also include seeking to make Play Off Match tickets available to season ticket holders, members of membership clubs or other similar schemes at the same discount that would apply to them for normal League Matches when compared with the Club’s published normal League Match admission charges.

4.7 The provisions of Regulation 34.2.4 to 34.2.11 (inclusive) shall apply so as to ensure that away supporters are not charged more than home supporters except where permitted by those Regulations.

4.8 For the avoidance of doubt, Regulation 34.2.3 (5% commission on away ticket sales) shall not apply.

5 Central Sponsorship

5.1 Each Club will be required to make available the contracted services and facilities at the Club's Home ground from time to time required for the League's sponsorship and commercial partners. Details will be circulated by The League's Commercial Department.

6 Financial Rules relating to the Semi-Final matches

6.1 For all semi-final matches the visting Club may claim travel expenses incurred (and the amount claimed shall be an expense of the match) at the following rates:

6.1.1 standard class railway fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

6.1.2 air fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

6.1.3 actual cost of motor coach hire (not exceeding £2,400). 6.2 For all semi final matches, subject to Rule 5.3, the visting Club may also claim hotel expenses incurred (and the amount claimed shall be an expense of the match) at the following rates:

6.2.1 for an overnight stay, for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

6.2.2 where there is no overnight stay, a maximum of £450 (where necessarily incurred).

6.3 A visting Club shall only be entitled to claim overnight hotel expenses where it would not be possible for the visting Club to return to its home stadium or training ground (as applicable) within 5 hours (including a stop of not more than 45 minutes) of the conclusion of the match. Any hotel expenses (overnight or otherwise) shall be agreed between the home Club and visiting Club in advance. Any disputes shall immediately be referred to The League for settlement and whose decision will be final.

6.4 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. Facility fees payable to Clubs shall be determined by the Board.

6.5 The proceeds of each match (including replayed matches and admittance to the away Club’s ground where a beamback is provided) shall after paying thereout the travelling and/or hotel expenses of the Visiting Club (calculated in accordance with Rules 5.1 to 5.3), the ground and other expenses of the match including Value Added Tax, floodlighting of the playing pitch and ancillary lighting (not to exceed £200), advertising, printing, postage, police charges, costs incurred pursuant to Rule 2.6, turnstile operators, stewards and contribution to first aid helpers shall hereafter be referred to as ‘the Semi Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy’.

6.6 A levy amounting to 3% of the Semi Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy shall be payable in accordance with Article 36. The balance of the net proceeds after deduction of the levy represents the 'Net Gate Receipts' and such Net Gate Receipts shall be divided as follows:

6.6.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35; and

6.6.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be aggregated, Division by Division, and each Division's aggregated monies shall be shared equally amongst the four Clubs taking part in that Division's Play-Off matches.

6.7 Each Home Club shall send the 3% levy and the shares of the Net Gate Receipts to be paid into the Pool Account to The League together with a statement of the calculations thereof within ten days of the match to be aggregated by Division.

7 Financial Rules relating to the Final matches

7.1 Where a Club sells match tickets on behalf of The League, the proceeds of ticket sales shall be paid to The League in accordance with the provisions of Article 47.

7.2 In respect of the Final, each Club shall be entitled to claim (and the amount claimed shall be an expense of the match) travelling expenses at the following rates:

7.2.1 standard class railway fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

7.2.2 air fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

7.2.3 actual cost of motor coach hire (not exceeding £2,400).

7.3 Both Clubs shall be entitled to claim a maximum of two nights overnight hotel accommodation if incurred. Such expenses shall be limited to those incurred for a party not exceeding twenty-four in number at a maximum rate of £100 per person.

7.4 The proceeds of each match after paying thereout the travelling and/or hotel expenses of the competing Clubs (calculated in accordance with Rules 6.2 and 6.3), the ground and other expenses of the match including Value Added Tax, hire of stadium, advertising, printing, postage, police charges, turnstile operators, stewards, contribution to first aid helpers, catering, entertainment, travelling and/or hotel expenses of the Board, staff, match officials and ball boys shall hereafter be referred to as ‘the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy’. A levy amounting to 3% of the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy shall be payable in accordance with Article 36. The balance of the net proceeds after deduction of the Levy represents the Net Gate Receipts and such Net Gate Receipts shall be divided as follows:

7.4.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35;

7.4.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be divided equally between the two Clubs taking part in each Final Play-Off match.

7.5 Where spectators are admitted to the Final Play-Off matches as part of hospitality arrangements by The League then the income from such hospitality arrangements shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Levy.

7.6 Income derived from programme sales and perimeter advertising after paying thereout all attributable costs shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy.

7.7 Any income or costs which are attributable to more than one match, including without limitation the Stadium hire costs, will be apportioned pro rata to gate receipts.

7.8 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. No facility fees shall be payable to Clubs.

Re: TV money

14
Amberexile wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amber Nation wrote:EFL Rules and Regulations relating to the Play Off Final

7.4.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35;

7.4.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be divided equally between the two Clubs taking part in each Final Play-Off match.

7.5 Where spectators are admitted to the Final Play-Off matches as part of hospitality arrangements by The League then the income from such hospitality arrangements shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Levy.

7.6 Income derived from programme sales and perimeter advertising after paying thereout all attributable costs shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy.

7.7 Any income or costs which are attributable to more than one match, including without limitation the Stadium hire costs, will be apportioned pro rata to gate receipts.

7.8 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. No facility fees shall be payable to Clubs.
To be clear, I am not sure. However if 7.8 means that no television money is payed to the clubs then the wording 'any match' would seem to cover the two semi-final ties.
I don't think that is the case when you read the whole of the regulations. 'any match' refers to the three play off finals (one for each division) as this is in the drafting under the heading for section 7 which deals exclusively with the playoff finals. Section 6 covers the semi-finals in which the television broadcasting and facility fees are covered in 6.4 with similar but different wording.

Read as a whole they make more sense despite the probable errors in 7.4. Seeing them properly formatted helps understanding as well. Although they could be much clearer.

Sky Bet EFL Play-Off Rules 2018/19

1 Definitions

1.1 Throughout these Rules, unless the context otherwise requires: -

‘The League’ means The Football League Limited.
‘the Board’ means the Board of Directors of The League.
‘the Clubs’ means those Clubs qualifying for the Play-Off Competition each Season.
'the Play-Off Competition' means the knockout competition held at the end of each Season to determine the final Club qualifying for promotion to the next highest Division, or in the case of the Championship, the Premier League.
‘these Rules’ means these Rules of the Play-Off Competition as from time to time altered.
‘the Regulations’ means the Regulations of The League from time to time in force.
2 Competition Format

2.1 At the end of each Season, the four highest placed Clubs in each division not gaining automatic promotion shall enter the Play-Off Competition.

2.2 The Semi-Final matches shall be played over two legs.

2.3 In the Semi-Finals, the two teams who finished in the First and Second Play-Off place in The League, will play away from home in the first leg against the Fourth and Third placed team respectively. These pairings will be reversed for the second leg.

2.4 In the Semi-Finals, the first leg shall be of 90 (ninety) minutes duration. If the aggregate scores are level at the end of 90 (ninety) minutes in the second leg, extra time will be played. If the scores remain level at the end of extra time the tie will be determined by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with procedures as approved by the International Football Association Board (IFAB).

2.5 In the Final, if the score is level at the end of 90 (ninety) minutes, extra time will be played, followed if necessary by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with procedures as approved by IFAB.

2.6 Fourth Substitute. Notwithstanding the provisions of Regulation 33.4, where any Semi-Final second leg and/or the Final match goes to extra time then each Club participating in that match will be permitted to use an additional substitute (in extra time only).

2.7 Use of Technology. Where any venue at which a match is to be played has:

3 Goal line technology system installed; and / or

3.1.1 such equipment as is necessary to enable the use of video assistant referees,

in compliance with the Laws of the Game, The League shall be entitled to determine whether any such system is used, and its decision shall be final.

4 Tickets

4.1 Where a Home Club admits any person to the ground as part of its hospitality arrangements or to an executive box and there is no separate charge for admission, each person is treated as having bought a ticket at the highest price payable for a ticket for that match. 4.2 A maximum of 250 complimentary tickets, excluding those covered under Rule 3.4, and any tickets required to be made available under any commercial agreement entered into by The League, may be issued. Any tickets in excess of this number must be accounted for at the appropriate rate.

4.3 The Visiting Club shall have the right to claim 2,000 tickets for use by its supporters (or such number as represents 10% of all tickets reserved or otherwise sold in advance, if less than 2,000). The following conditions shall apply:

4.3.1 unless otherwise mutually agreed in writing, all tickets shall be on sale or return basis;

4.3.2 payments for tickets sold by a Visiting Club together with details of tickets sold and the return of unsold tickets, must be made to the Home Club within four days of the date of the match; and

4.3.3 a minimum of 10% of the total disabled spectator accommodation must be made available to disabled supporters of the Visiting Club.

4.4 A Visiting Club shall also be entitled to one third of the seats usually reserved and known as the ‘Home and Visiting Directors' Seats’, up to a maximum of 24 seats.

4.5 The Home Club may not reduce normal League admission charges without the written agreement of the Away Club. Any disagreement between the Clubs shall be determined by The League. 4.6 For the purposes of Rule 3.5, ‘reduce’ shall also include seeking to make Play Off Match tickets available to season ticket holders, members of membership clubs or other similar schemes at the same discount that would apply to them for normal League Matches when compared with the Club’s published normal League Match admission charges.

4.7 The provisions of Regulation 34.2.4 to 34.2.11 (inclusive) shall apply so as to ensure that away supporters are not charged more than home supporters except where permitted by those Regulations.

4.8 For the avoidance of doubt, Regulation 34.2.3 (5% commission on away ticket sales) shall not apply.

5 Central Sponsorship

5.1 Each Club will be required to make available the contracted services and facilities at the Club's Home ground from time to time required for the League's sponsorship and commercial partners. Details will be circulated by The League's Commercial Department.

6 Financial Rules relating to the Semi-Final matches

6.1 For all semi-final matches the visting Club may claim travel expenses incurred (and the amount claimed shall be an expense of the match) at the following rates:

6.1.1 standard class railway fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

6.1.2 air fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

6.1.3 actual cost of motor coach hire (not exceeding £2,400). 6.2 For all semi final matches, subject to Rule 5.3, the visting Club may also claim hotel expenses incurred (and the amount claimed shall be an expense of the match) at the following rates:

6.2.1 for an overnight stay, for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

6.2.2 where there is no overnight stay, a maximum of £450 (where necessarily incurred).

6.3 A visting Club shall only be entitled to claim overnight hotel expenses where it would not be possible for the visting Club to return to its home stadium or training ground (as applicable) within 5 hours (including a stop of not more than 45 minutes) of the conclusion of the match. Any hotel expenses (overnight or otherwise) shall be agreed between the home Club and visiting Club in advance. Any disputes shall immediately be referred to The League for settlement and whose decision will be final.

6.4 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. Facility fees payable to Clubs shall be determined by the Board.

6.5 The proceeds of each match (including replayed matches and admittance to the away Club’s ground where a beamback is provided) shall after paying thereout the travelling and/or hotel expenses of the Visiting Club (calculated in accordance with Rules 5.1 to 5.3), the ground and other expenses of the match including Value Added Tax, floodlighting of the playing pitch and ancillary lighting (not to exceed £200), advertising, printing, postage, police charges, costs incurred pursuant to Rule 2.6, turnstile operators, stewards and contribution to first aid helpers shall hereafter be referred to as ‘the Semi Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy’.

6.6 A levy amounting to 3% of the Semi Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy shall be payable in accordance with Article 36. The balance of the net proceeds after deduction of the levy represents the 'Net Gate Receipts' and such Net Gate Receipts shall be divided as follows:

6.6.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35; and

6.6.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be aggregated, Division by Division, and each Division's aggregated monies shall be shared equally amongst the four Clubs taking part in that Division's Play-Off matches.

6.7 Each Home Club shall send the 3% levy and the shares of the Net Gate Receipts to be paid into the Pool Account to The League together with a statement of the calculations thereof within ten days of the match to be aggregated by Division.

7 Financial Rules relating to the Final matches

7.1 Where a Club sells match tickets on behalf of The League, the proceeds of ticket sales shall be paid to The League in accordance with the provisions of Article 47.

7.2 In respect of the Final, each Club shall be entitled to claim (and the amount claimed shall be an expense of the match) travelling expenses at the following rates:

7.2.1 standard class railway fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

7.2.2 air fares for up to 24 persons for the Players and officials of the visiting club at a maximum rate of £100 per person; or

7.2.3 actual cost of motor coach hire (not exceeding £2,400).

7.3 Both Clubs shall be entitled to claim a maximum of two nights overnight hotel accommodation if incurred. Such expenses shall be limited to those incurred for a party not exceeding twenty-four in number at a maximum rate of £100 per person.

7.4 The proceeds of each match after paying thereout the travelling and/or hotel expenses of the competing Clubs (calculated in accordance with Rules 6.2 and 6.3), the ground and other expenses of the match including Value Added Tax, hire of stadium, advertising, printing, postage, police charges, turnstile operators, stewards, contribution to first aid helpers, catering, entertainment, travelling and/or hotel expenses of the Board, staff, match officials and ball boys shall hereafter be referred to as ‘the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy’. A levy amounting to 3% of the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy shall be payable in accordance with Article 36. The balance of the net proceeds after deduction of the Levy represents the Net Gate Receipts and such Net Gate Receipts shall be divided as follows:

7.4.1 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be paid into the Pool Account referred to in Article 35;

7.4.2 the remaining 50% of the Net Gate Receipts shall be divided equally between the two Clubs taking part in each Final Play-Off match.

7.5 Where spectators are admitted to the Final Play-Off matches as part of hospitality arrangements by The League then the income from such hospitality arrangements shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Levy.

7.6 Income derived from programme sales and perimeter advertising after paying thereout all attributable costs shall be included in the Final Net Gate Receipts Before Levy.

7.7 Any income or costs which are attributable to more than one match, including without limitation the Stadium hire costs, will be apportioned pro rata to gate receipts.

7.8 Income from television broadcasting of any match shall not form part of the proceeds of the match. No facility fees shall be payable to Clubs.
Firstly thank you for posting.

It may be me but having read all I am little better informed. If I had to choose I'd go for no TV money but I am not sure.

Also I smiled reading that clubs could claim back hotel expenses if the journey was more than five hours. Utterly pointless provision. If say we played Carlisle we could claim hotel expenses from them but of course they could claim hotel expenses from us.

Last time I checked the distance between Carlisle and Newport is exactly the same as the distance between Newport and Carlisle. :grin:

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