Stan A. Einstein wrote:

George Street-Bridge wrote:When does the furlough start running down and when will it end?

That to the best of my knowledge, has yet to be announced. Which again, if I am not in error, must make the figures a 'terminological inexactitude'.

Changes were announced at the end of May. Those of us who employ people have difficult decisions to make.
The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme will close on 31 October 2020...

From 1 July, employers can bring furloughed employees back to work for any amount of time and any shift pattern, while still being able to claim CJRS grant for the hours not worked.

From 1 August 2020, the level of grant will be reduced each month.To be eligible for the grant employers must pay furloughed employees 80% of their wages, up to a cap of £2,500 per month for the time they are being furloughed.

The timetable for changes to the scheme is set out below. Wage caps are proportional to the hours an employee is furloughed. For example, an employee is entitled to 60% of the £2,500 cap if they are placed on furlough for 60% of their usual hours:

• there are no changes to grant levels in June
  for June and July, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours the employee is on furlough, as well as employer National Insurance Contributions (ER NICS) and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will have to pay employees for the hours they work
  for August, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours an employee is on furlough and employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough
  for September, the government will pay 70% of wages up to a cap of £2,187.50 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed
  for October, the government will pay 60% of wages up to a cap of £1,875 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed

Answering my own question, but as things stand the furlough will end on 31 October. That's when the stuff will really hit the fan.

Don't forget furlough ends as soon as the players start pre-season training. If the season starts in September, they'll be back next month & all player costs will be met by the club.
Just explaining how furlough works.

Of course, I was forgetting that bit.

Our combined player wage bill of £1.4-1.5m sits just below the EFL2 league average. Likes of Morecambe, Macc are closer to the £1m but at the other end Bradford are reported to have a player wage bill of £2.8m. Just read that the average player wage at Barrow is £750pw which would equate to a combined bill of approx £800k.
Give or take I would say that furlough is currently just about covering our loss of income from losing the final 4 games of 19/20 season. Over 4 months 20 players at £2.5k per month (£50k pm) furlough payment covers the £50k per game x 4 (£200k) income we have lost.
I think the financial problem is the projection from now until Xmas when we potentially have playing in front of empty stadiums and a reduction and ultimately a cancellation of furlough payments. Still not sure how the loss of £750k is calculated unless it just refers to loss of income from match day receipts, which could quite easily total £750k. I guess whoever is reporting a potential £750k loss needs to clarify it.

Edit: Just read Jonesy3's post - forgot that once we start pre-season training then the furlough payments stop so can now see how the £750k potential loss is calculated.

Jonesy3 wrote:

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

George Street-Bridge wrote:When does the furlough start running down and when will it end?

That to the best of my knowledge, has yet to be announced. Which again, if I am not in error, must make the figures a 'terminological inexactitude'.

Changes were announced at the end of May. Those of us who employ people have difficult decisions to make.
The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme will close on 31 October 2020...

From 1 July, employers can bring furloughed employees back to work for any amount of time and any shift pattern, while still being able to claim CJRS grant for the hours not worked.

From 1 August 2020, the level of grant will be reduced each month.To be eligible for the grant employers must pay furloughed employees 80% of their wages, up to a cap of £2,500 per month for the time they are being furloughed.

The timetable for changes to the scheme is set out below. Wage caps are proportional to the hours an employee is furloughed. For example, an employee is entitled to 60% of the £2,500 cap if they are placed on furlough for 60% of their usual hours:

• there are no changes to grant levels in June
  for June and July, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours the employee is on furlough, as well as employer National Insurance Contributions (ER NICS) and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will have to pay employees for the hours they work
  for August, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours an employee is on furlough and employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough
  for September, the government will pay 70% of wages up to a cap of £2,187.50 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed
  for October, the government will pay 60% of wages up to a cap of £1,875 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed

Which is informative thank you.

Now at present it seems that the season has a projected start of October with crowds projected to return at Christmas. That is of course a prediction which is subject to change. But it is the best guess.

So assuming three home games a month, October, November, December would see nine home games, which added to the four lost last season is a total of thirteen games lost. Now assuming a figure of £15 per attendee and a crowd of 3,500, both at the upper end of the estimate about £55,000 per game, so we have our projected loss of £750,000.

However if our wages are £1,400,000 the furlough would pay over the six months at 80% somewhere in the region of £600,000. We know also that many people chose not to claim back season ticket prices. We know the costs of staging a game, stewarding etc are massively reduced. We know that with the retirement of Mark O'Brien and the redundancy of Messrs. Matt and Bennett, that there is a saving in wages in the region of £130,000. Not to mention Lenny Lawrence.
On the other hand there is the loss of ancillary sales. Booze which is tiny, programme sales, which is probably more. Other sales such as shirts, scarfs etc, I would have thought people who would have bought in August will now buy in November.

In short I fail to see how this projected loss can be made. It is a nonsense figure.

More importantly the ill effect of Covid19 are there for all our rivals. It gives us a comparative advantage now our attendance's are equal to everyone else's.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

Jonesy3 wrote:

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

George Street-Bridge wrote:When does the furlough start running down and when will it end?

That to the best of my knowledge, has yet to be announced. Which again, if I am not in error, must make the figures a 'terminological inexactitude'.

Changes were announced at the end of May. Those of us who employ people have difficult decisions to make.
The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme will close on 31 October 2020...

From 1 July, employers can bring furloughed employees back to work for any amount of time and any shift pattern, while still being able to claim CJRS grant for the hours not worked.

From 1 August 2020, the level of grant will be reduced each month.To be eligible for the grant employers must pay furloughed employees 80% of their wages, up to a cap of £2,500 per month for the time they are being furloughed.

The timetable for changes to the scheme is set out below. Wage caps are proportional to the hours an employee is furloughed. For example, an employee is entitled to 60% of the £2,500 cap if they are placed on furlough for 60% of their usual hours:

• there are no changes to grant levels in June
  for June and July, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours the employee is on furlough, as well as employer National Insurance Contributions (ER NICS) and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will have to pay employees for the hours they work
  for August, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours an employee is on furlough and employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough
  for September, the government will pay 70% of wages up to a cap of £2,187.50 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed
  for October, the government will pay 60% of wages up to a cap of £1,875 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed

Which is informative thank you.

Now at present it seems that the season has a projected start of October with crowds projected to return at Christmas. That is of course a prediction which is subject to change. But it is the best guess.

So assuming three home games a month, October, November, December would see nine home games, which added to the four lost last season is a total of thirteen games lost. Now assuming a figure of £15 per attendee and a crowd of 3,500, both at the upper end of the estimate about £55,000 per game, so we have our projected loss of £750,000.

However if our wages are £1,400,000 the furlough would pay over the six months at 80% somewhere in the region of £600,000. We know also that many people chose not to claim back season ticket prices. We know the costs of staging a game, stewarding etc are massively reduced. We know that with the retirement of Mark O'Brien and the redundancy of Messrs. Matt and Bennett, that there is a saving in wages in the region of £130,000. Not to mention Lenny Lawrence.
On the other hand there is the loss of ancillary sales. Booze which is tiny, programme sales, which is probably more. Other sales such as shirts, scarfs etc, I would have thought people who would have bought in August will now buy in November.

In short I fail to see how this projected loss can be made. It is a nonsense figure.

More importantly the ill effect of Covid19 are there for all our rivals. It gives us a comparative advantage now our attendance's are equal to everyone else's.

The furlough payments will stop when County start pre-season training, which I guess will be start of August for a season starting in early September as projected currently. Furlough payments up to that point would offset the loss of the final 4 home games last season. No furlough payments will therefore mitigate the loss of match day receipts for the period September - December or whenever crowds return. Plus the club may have to meet the cost of Covid testing during this period. The FA itself is projecting a £300m loss so can't see them offering clubs any financial assistance.

Edit: a Cheltenham Town FC director reported that taking part in the 19/20 play-offs will cost his club £200-300k due to Covid testing and taking their squad and staff out of the furlough scheme for a month.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

Jonesy3 wrote:

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

George Street-Bridge wrote:When does the furlough start running down and when will it end?

That to the best of my knowledge, has yet to be announced. Which again, if I am not in error, must make the figures a 'terminological inexactitude'.

Changes were announced at the end of May. Those of us who employ people have difficult decisions to make.
The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme will close on 31 October 2020...

From 1 July, employers can bring furloughed employees back to work for any amount of time and any shift pattern, while still being able to claim CJRS grant for the hours not worked.

From 1 August 2020, the level of grant will be reduced each month.To be eligible for the grant employers must pay furloughed employees 80% of their wages, up to a cap of £2,500 per month for the time they are being furloughed.

The timetable for changes to the scheme is set out below. Wage caps are proportional to the hours an employee is furloughed. For example, an employee is entitled to 60% of the £2,500 cap if they are placed on furlough for 60% of their usual hours:

• there are no changes to grant levels in June
  for June and July, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours the employee is on furlough, as well as employer National Insurance Contributions (ER NICS) and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will have to pay employees for the hours they work
  for August, the government will pay 80% of wages up to a cap of £2,500 for the hours an employee is on furlough and employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions for the hours the employee is on furlough
  for September, the government will pay 70% of wages up to a cap of £2,187.50 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed
  for October, the government will pay 60% of wages up to a cap of £1,875 for the hours the employee is on furlough. Employers will pay ER NICs and pension contributions and top up employees’ wages to ensure they receive 80% of their wages up to a cap of £2,500, for time they are furloughed

Which is informative thank you.

Now at present it seems that the season has a projected start of October with crowds projected to return at Christmas. That is of course a prediction which is subject to change. But it is the best guess.

So assuming three home games a month, October, November, December would see nine home games, which added to the four lost last season is a total of thirteen games lost. Now assuming a figure of £15 per attendee and a crowd of 3,500, both at the upper end of the estimate about £55,000 per game, so we have our projected loss of £750,000.

However if our wages are £1,400,000 the furlough would pay over the six months at 80% somewhere in the region of £600,000. We know also that many people chose not to claim back season ticket prices. We know the costs of staging a game, stewarding etc are massively reduced. We know that with the retirement of Mark O'Brien and the redundancy of Messrs. Matt and Bennett, that there is a saving in wages in the region of £130,000. Not to mention Lenny Lawrence.
On the other hand there is the loss of ancillary sales. Booze which is tiny, programme sales, which is probably more. Other sales such as shirts, scarfs etc, I would have thought people who would have bought in August will now buy in November.

In short I fail to see how this projected loss can be made. It is a nonsense figure.

More importantly the ill effect of Covid19 are there for all our rivals. It gives us a comparative advantage now our attendance's are equal to everyone else's.

I can only really comment on furlough because I'm using it in my own business. It ends as soon as staff return to work, though there is some flexibility around part-time work from August. For footballers, it ends the second they go back to the training ground. Let's assume that's 5 weeks before the season starts.
According to the BBC, EFL met with clubs yesterday & suggested the season starting late August/early September - so that would mean furlough ending this month.
Add on the loss of hospitality, corporate boxes, etc etc?
If you run any kind of business, you know there's an economic sh**tstorm just around the corner. Saw an estimate yesterday that 40% of people currently on furlough would be made redundant when the scheme ends.
9.3 million people are on furlough.

faerun exile wrote: The furlough payments will stop when County start pre-season training, which I guess will be start of August for a season starting in early September as projected currently. Furlough payments up to that point would offset the loss of the final 4 home games last season. No furlough payments will therefore mitigate the loss of match day receipts for the period September - December or whenever crowds return. Plus the club may have to meet the cost of Covid testing during this period. The FA itself is projecting a £300m loss so can't see them offering clubs any financial assistance.

Even if you are correct that pre season training will start in early August, which I doubt, you forget there are no League games played when pre season takes place. At present the projected loss is of the match day receipts and ancillary receipts of thirteen games.

Against this you have to take away furlough payments, the receipts of those who didn't reclaim season ticket refunds, the match day costs of stewarding etc.

No matter how favourable you attempt to be towards the position of the club, their projection is nonsense.

I used to charge £500 a day for my services. Sounds great.

£125 went to my clerk. Still £375 ain't bad.

Then I had to pay for my practising certificate, indemnity, continual professional development. £300 a day. Still far from poverty. I had to tax and insure my car and fill it with fuel. Not to mention parking costs. £250 a day. Still pretty good. And then the inland revenue hit me for another £50.

So I took home maybe £200 a day. But no holiday pay, no sick pay. To have been furloughed on £400 would have been a dream come true.

I was a typical small business. No different from a shop keeper or a plumber. My gross receipts were far greater than what in reality I earned. The same is true of Newport County. The £750,000 loss is the gross not the net.

My concern is that by bandying about this figure County are getting their excuses in early. There seems to me to be mounting evidence that the club have blown all the monies from transfers and Cup runs. And are going to use Covid19 as an excuse for this mismanagement.

I've always taken the £750,000 figure to be the gross loss of income. I'm not aware that anyone from the club has said otherwise. Where is it reported?

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

No matter how favourable you attempt to be towards the position of the club, their projection is nonsense.


My concern is that by bandying about this figure County are getting their excuses in early. There seems to me to be mounting evidence that the club have blown all the monies from transfers and Cup runs. And are going to use Covid19 as an excuse for this mismanagement.

Have I missed something? This thread took a 90° turn with the information about a Facebook suggestion about projected loss. This now seems to be a figure being 'bandied about by the club' and 'a projection made by the club'. Where is the 'mounting evidence that the club has 'blown all the monies from........' ?

As I suggested earlier, reads like a conspiracy theory to me.

excessbee wrote:

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

No matter how favourable you attempt to be towards the position of the club, their projection is nonsense.


My concern is that by bandying about this figure County are getting their excuses in early. There seems to me to be mounting evidence that the club have blown all the monies from transfers and Cup runs. And are going to use Covid19 as an excuse for this mismanagement.

Have I missed something? This thread took a 90° turn with the information about a Facebook suggestion about projected loss. This now seems to be a figure being 'bandied about by the club' and 'a projection made by the club'. Where is the 'mounting evidence that the club has 'blown all the monies from........' ?

As I suggested earlier, reads like a conspiracy theory to me.

Rob Santwris has produced the figure. I have no doubt whatsoever that Rob is a person of integrity and would not put this figure forward were he not informed this is the figure that the club say they expect to lose.

My view is that as I said above if that is the case this figure is being linked with plausible deniability.

It is my view. It may be I am mistaken. I hope I am mistaken. However in December I hoped I would be wrong about thinking that the UK would give Boris the Idiot a large parliamentary majority.

So rather than just shout conspiracy theory, on what basis do you believe Rob Santwris is not accurately reporting that which he has been told? And if you believe that which he has been told is correct, why do you believe my analysis of the £750,000 being a nonsensical figure is incorrect?

Where have I stated that your disbelief of the £750k is incorrect? I agree with you. Your analysis was based on trying to suggest figures that would amount to 750k, then disagreeing with the component parts. It didn't make the total in question. The bit I find difficult to swallow is the board using said person to put these figures in the public domain (if that's what Facebook can be called).

excessbee wrote:Where have I stated that your disbelief of the £750k is incorrect? I agree with you. Your analysis was based on trying to suggest figures that would amount to 750k, then disagreeing with the component parts. It didn't make the total in question. The bit I find difficult to swallow is the board using said person to put these figures in the public domain (if that's what Facebook can be called).

So help me. Do you believe Rob has made this up? For the avoidance of doubt, I am convinced utterly that Rob would not make this up.

So why do you believe Rob Santwris was given this information?

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

excessbee wrote:Where have I stated that your disbelief of the £750k is incorrect? I agree with you. Your analysis was based on trying to suggest figures that would amount to 750k, then disagreeing with the component parts. It didn't make the total in question. The bit I find difficult to swallow is the board using said person to put these figures in the public domain (if that's what Facebook can be called).

So help me. Do you believe Rob has made this up? For the avoidance of doubt, I am convinced utterly that Rob would not make this up.

So why do you believe Rob Santwris was given this information?

No Stan, it's you who believes Rob was given this information.