Shamina Begum

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Stan A. Einstein

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Shamina Begum

Postby Stan A. Einstein » February 20th, 2019, 12:08 pm

Watching in my Nottingham hotel room the BBC this morning, the BBC journalist said and it was unchallenged. She (Begum) had supported the Manchester bomb attack as retaliation for Allied bombing. Ms Begum said no such thing. What she actually said was that whilst she was against the Manchester bomb she thought it should not be forgotten that there had been bombing carried out by the West which was equally wrong.

Now you can disagree with her view but it seems to me that it is totally wrong condemn her for what she has not said. And thanks to the poor slipshod reporting of the BBC this is likely to happen.

My view is that she is a stupid, frightened little girl. Get her home, get her deradicalized, and if necessary put her on trial. But to satisfy the mob, which Javid is doing is playing base politics.

As always I am interested in the views of others.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby penycwm county » February 20th, 2019, 2:30 pm

what do you expect from the BBC, this is a great distraction from Brexit
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby mad norm » February 20th, 2019, 5:11 pm

Send her to China. They'll soon stick her in one of their educational establishments in the back of beyond..
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby UPTHEPORT » February 20th, 2019, 6:00 pm

Its pretty depressing really. Followers of a fundamentalist version of Islam, who despise democracy, hate liberal values and aren't upset by the sight of decapitated heads in a bin, nevertheless demand the safety net of the UK benefits system. Of course, there will be many from this country falling over themselves to assist.

So it's no from me she is a citizen of Bangladesh mind as well
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby pembsexile » February 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote:Watching in my Nottingham hotel room the BBC this morning, the BBC journalist said and it was unchallenged. She (Begum) had supported the Manchester bomb attack as retaliation for Allied bombing. Ms Begum said no such thing. What she actually said was that whilst she was against the Manchester bomb she thought it should not be forgotten that there had been bombing carried out by the West which was equally wrong.

Now you can disagree with her view but it seems to me that it is totally wrong condemn her for what she has not said. And thanks to the poor slipshod reporting of the BBC this is likely to happen.

My view is that she is a stupid, frightened little girl. Get her home, get her deradicalized, and if necessary put her on trial. But to satisfy the mob, which Javid is doing is playing base politics.

As always I am interested in the views of others.


Good evening Brendan. If what you say is correct then that is pretty sloppy reporting by the BBC. I am a bit disappointed with that as I do get most of my news these days from the BBC website.

I won't condemn her for what she has not said. I will criticise her for what she has done. In my view she is far from being a stupid frightened little girl. She is now 19 and has had three children. Some of her comments about what has happened whilst she is there are abhorrent.

Consider this. Imagine you are an immigration/human rights lawyer who had taken up her case and went to Syria to speak with her. Would you have gone there one year previously, her compatriots would have gladly slit your throat for being a kaffir.

When will people in this country ever understand that you cannot deal with these people. For them, it is their way or you die, no other choice.

I'm sorry Brendan but your comment about a deradicalisation programme shows a sense of naivity. Some of these people in IS even gloat about how they deal with deradicalisation programmes.

I have no idea how in the long term we deal with these people and that is probably one of the reasons why I will never make a politician. What I do know is that she, and others like her should be kept as far away from this country as reasonably possible.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby Stan A. Einstein » February 21st, 2019, 12:21 am

pembsexile wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:Watching in my Nottingham hotel room the BBC this morning, the BBC journalist said and it was unchallenged. She (Begum) had supported the Manchester bomb attack as retaliation for Allied bombing. Ms Begum said no such thing. What she actually said was that whilst she was against the Manchester bomb she thought it should not be forgotten that there had been bombing carried out by the West which was equally wrong.

Now you can disagree with her view but it seems to me that it is totally wrong condemn her for what she has not said. And thanks to the poor slipshod reporting of the BBC this is likely to happen.

My view is that she is a stupid, frightened little girl. Get her home, get her deradicalized, and if necessary put her on trial. But to satisfy the mob, which Javid is doing is playing base politics.

As always I am interested in the views of others.


Good evening Brendan. If what you say is correct then that is pretty sloppy reporting by the BBC. I am a bit disappointed with that as I do get most of my news these days from the BBC website.

I won't condemn her for what she has not said. I will criticise her for what she has done. In my view she is far from being a stupid frightened little girl. She is now 19 and has had three children. Some of her comments about what has happened whilst she is there are abhorrent.

Consider this. Imagine you are an immigration/human rights lawyer who had taken up her case and went to Syria to speak with her. Would you have gone there one year previously, her compatriots would have gladly slit your throat for being a kaffir.

When will people in this country ever understand that you cannot deal with these people. For them, it is their way or you die, no other choice.

I'm sorry Brendan but your comment about a deradicalisation programme shows a sense of naivity. Some of these people in IS even gloat about how they deal with deradicalisation programmes.

I have no idea how in the long term we deal with these people and that is probably one of the reasons why I will never make a politician. What I do know is that she, and others like her should be kept as far away from this country as reasonably possible.


Hi Mike,

Have to disagree. Firstly human rights apply because we are human. It is easy to defend the rights of the angels, the test for me is defending the rights of those with whom we fundamentally disagree. The point I always make is that being, as I am, totally against the death penalty does not mean that I favour murder.

Moving on, as for deradicalization being naive, again I can't agree. After the 2nd World War the German public were subjected to to deNazification. It worked. Germany is a Western Liberal Democracy.

Three children at 19. That would for me tend to suggest she was herself the victim of abuse. Also her son is a British citizen. At two days old how much blame and punishment can be placed on him?

Finally and for me very important for me is redemption. I believe no human being is beyond hope. And I would hate to be judged on me at my worst.

Best wishes,

Brendan
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby pembsexile » February 21st, 2019, 6:58 am

Brendan,
I mentioned that she had three children, two are dead. Her son is completely innocent. I did not suggest otherwise.

To be clear, people are not beyond redemption, ideas are. People who follow those ideas are the problem. I have no idea how to de radicalise people of a certain persuasion.

There is no correlation whatsoever between deNatzifying the German population after the Second World War and deradicalysing ISIS members. The German population were not all Nazis and they followed a political idea. Lots of hem were forced into the conflict, they had no choice.

ISIS. Their members made a choice. They believe that when they die doing what they do, that they automatically go to heaven. Did the Nazi's believe that? ISIS glory in what they do.

Why is it that certain people in the media believe that these people have been abused, including you Brendan? That is part of their belief, that it is OK to start breeding girls for kids as soon as possible. She knew that before she went there, even as a 15 year old. She was not stupid at all. She knew what would happen to her.

As I mentioned previously, when will we ever wake up to the fact that these people believe that if you do not follow their perverted version of a belief, that you should die. They will willingly kill you for this. That means me, my family and all I believe in. Wake up people. You cannot deradicalise that belief. It is a fundamental concept.

Brendan, I believe that you sincerely believe that you are right. I sincerely believe that you are wrong. I have to say, heaven help us all if the Human Rights lawyers get on top of this one. They (ISIS) and their cohorts will play you all, including you, like a piano. The sad thing is you cannot see it because of your belief in defending what you believe to be right.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby newgroundrodney » February 21st, 2019, 11:38 am

She, like her ISIS cohorts, obviously missed the part in Al-Qur'an where it says "take not for yourselves for friends and comforters in place of believers, from among the Jews and Christians, for each is but a friend to the other, and anyone who makes himself a friend of them, makes himself one of them"..... now we're expected to believe she wants to be our friend, she wants us as 'comforters' effectively.
When she left Britain, she was going to live in what she believed was a new state in formation, an Islamic, 'Israel' for want of a better word. In so doing, she was renouncing her citizenship of any other state. There is nothing wrong in the desire for an Islamic 'Israel' by the way, that's quite a good and lofty thing to strive for, if done by peaceful means. The Khalifate that she still believes in is something she feels can be brought about anywhere. As she admits herself: "I don't agree with everything ISIS believe". Well, truth is, there are two sides; the THEOlogy, and the IDEOlogy... most Muslims would agree with most of ISIS' theology: praying 5 times, fasting, etc, etc, the problem is the ideology, in which even being a Muslim is not in itself enough, you have to be the right SORT of Muslim. Something like 90% of ISIS' victims have been other Muslims. Cleaning their OWN back garden first so to speak.

Watching how things have unfolded in the failed ISIS, the failed 'Islamic Israel' as it were, has left her disillusioned. So now she wants to return to the kind of country she actually despises, even though she will be mindful of the Qur'anic reminder that : Allah "placed you into nations and tribes, so that you should come to know each other, not so you should despise each other"....
Further in need of note, is that Islam considers a 15 yr old to be an adult, not a 'silly little school girl'....

The reason I focus on the religious aspects is because we need to understand her mindset. Her apocalyptic view of the world, (which incidentally most Muslims would agree with, but hers is far more extreme than simply looking forward to the 'End of the World') is what makes her a danger.
For the above reasons, she is not welcome here, and not safe to be here.

Let's remember the ISIS warning: "We'll flood Europe with warriors disguised as refugees"....which part of that warning do we not take seriously?
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby Stan A. Einstein » February 21st, 2019, 12:31 pm

Gary, Mike, Good morning.

We clearly have differing views. So to develop this let's argue it through. If nothing else it will serve as a lesson in how to fundamentally disagree whilst maintaining a friendly conversation. (No names as to who could best use this.)

So and this is a barrister technique I'm afraid, let us assume you are both right and I am wrong. Bangladesh has now said that they will not grant her citizenship. Suppose she arrives at Dover with her child.

Just to assist, the UK is a signatory to the UN convention outlawing statelessness. The UK is also a signatory of the ECHR. Protocol 2 of which outlaws the death penalty, and in any event Ms Begum has not killed anybody.

From a purely moral stance, Ms Begum was groomed on the internet at the age of 15 or younger. For both sex and radicalism.

What gentlemen do you propose now to do with her?

That if I were her barrister is what I would be saying. I probably know the barristers who will end up representing her. (Only because we were a fairly small group.) I would be Amazed if they are not the arguments put.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby newgroundrodney » February 21st, 2019, 12:59 pm

I'm not sure on the citizenship status of her parents, i.e. whether they have Bangladeshi citizenship or not. It seems to me, that firstly her child is no more a British citizen than she herself is Bangladeshi....but leave that there for the moment.
The father of her child is Dutch. The Dutch are handing out citizenship like fliers outside a nightclub. Mrs Begum has even said 'maybe I should go to Holland then'..... yes Mrs Begum you should.

This notion of not being allowed to leave a person stateless is not strictly true. Czech republic for example, routinely made people stateless and many still are as a result of the velvet revolution, in which Czechoslovakia split up into its component parts. People were required to renounce Slovakian citizenship as a pre-requisite of applying for Czech citizenship, with no guarantee that the latter would granted. Some still have no state as a result..... but that was the Czech way of keeping 'undesirable' Roma out of the country.....but again, we'll leave that there for now: (I'm resisting the temptation of saying, 'One rule for the rest of Europe, one rule for Britain')
She turns up trying to enter Britain, she should be told 'we have no duty towards you'.....if we're signed up to something that stops us from doing so, then we need to leave whatever that agreement is.
It's not just Begum, there are more Begum's to come.
As I said, when she left, she was joining what was a new state in formation. In doing so, she renounced her UK citizenship. Whether under UK law a 15 yr old can make such a decision is another argument.
Presumably, when we read she has had her citizenship revoked, the legality of that move will have already been checked by Sajid Javed.
But it may be it gets over turned because as a layman, it seems 'any law is only as good as the latest appeal result'.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby Stan A. Einstein » February 21st, 2019, 1:26 pm

newgroundrodney wrote:I'm not sure on the citizenship status of her parents, i.e. whether they have Bangladeshi citizenship or not. It seems to me, that firstly her child is no more a British citizen than she herself is Bangladeshi....but leave that there for the moment.
The father of her child is Dutch. The Dutch are handing out citizenship like fliers outside a nightclub. Mrs Begum has even said 'maybe I should go to Holland then'..... yes Mrs Begum you should.

This notion of not being allowed to leave a person stateless is not strictly true. Czech republic for example, routinely made people stateless and many still are as a result of the velvet revolution, in which Czechoslovakia split up into its component parts. People were required to renounce Slovakian citizenship as a pre-requisite of applying for Czech citizenship, with no guarantee that the latter would granted. Some still have no state as a result..... but that was the Czech way of keeping 'undesirable' Roma out of the country.....but again, we'll leave that there for now: (I'm resisting the temptation of saying, 'One rule for the rest of Europe, one rule for Britain')
She turns up trying to enter Britain, she should be told 'we have no duty towards you'.....if we're signed up to something that stops us from doing so, then we need to leave whatever that agreement is.
It's not just Begum, there are more Begum's to come.
As I said, when she left, she was joining what was a new state in formation. In doing so, she renounced her UK citizenship. Whether under UK law a 15 yr old can make such a decision is another argument.
Presumably, when we read she has had her citizenship revoked, the legality of that move will have already been checked by Sajid Javed.
But it may be it gets over turned because as a layman, it seems 'any law is only as good as the latest appeal result'.


Firstly I won about 80% of my immigration cases. Which was a high ratio. However every case I won and I estimate it would have been well over 2,000 I had to show that the Secretary of State for the Home Department had acted unlawfully.

Second point. You are I think simply incorrect about the velvet revolution. At the time of partition those living in what was CzechoSlovakia had to choose which nationality to adopt. Now this did cause problems because some people didn't want partition and wished to remain Czechoslovakians. Nobody though was denied a citizenship.

Your point about renouncing her UK citizenship is also not correct. The UK government might wish to say she did but she didn't. I don't quite see how she can but if she had done so why would Sajid Javid have to attempt to revoke it?

Your argument re Dutch nationality is I think wrong. I am not an expert on Dutch law, so I could be wrong. However what is the case in the UK and every country I know this specific area in is that you may have a right of residence but that is not citizenship. For instance you have and even after Brexit will continue to have a right of residence in Ireland. You do not have a right to Irish citizenship. This is particularly important in this case. As an Irish citizen, the Irish state can imprison me, make me do military service, in exceptional circumstances can even kill me. What the Irish state can't do is kick me out of the country. (Watch the film Jimmy's Hall, the exception which proves the rule.) That's what citizenship is. Whatever you do you are your country's problem.

Your solutions thus far seem to be that she could/should go to Holland or Bangladesh. My view is she can do neither. However even if she could, the UK gave birth to this woman, educated her, etc. Why should the UK be able to foist it's problems on the Dutch or the Bangladeshies? How would you feel if the Dutch Government said to her husband, 'You can't come in, go to England'?
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby newgroundrodney » February 21st, 2019, 1:57 pm

STAN : In Czechoslovakia they had to give up citizenship entirely before applying for the other. That is a matter of record. I know people who have family who are still stateless even now. Unable to get any help from any source because their Czech application was rejected. I had to send them Czech currency in the post so they could eat. They're 'only' Roma though, so nobody worries too much about them. Heaven knows what became of them bless them.

The Dutch have given citizenship to large numbers of Somalis, Eritreans & Sudanese, in order that they could more easily leave Holland for 'other EU countries' should they wish. It appears to be their way of getting rid of 'undesirables'....

Back to the Begum girl. I'm glad you have the depth of knowledge and understanding you enjoy, and I fully accept that in reality she'll be allowed back in on appeal. Doesn't make it right though, just makes it legal, which is not the same thing.
There is no easy answer, but to me, and it's only my opinion, any country should be able to declare someone as unwelcome. There have to be times when a country can look to it's own interests,regardless of what they're signed up to, or what clubs they belong to.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby Stan A. Einstein » February 21st, 2019, 2:13 pm

newgroundrodney wrote:STAN : In Czechoslovakia they had to give up citizenship entirely before applying for the other. That is a matter of record. I know people who have family who are still stateless even now. Unable to get any help from any source because their Czech application was rejected. I had to send them Czech currency in the post so they could eat. They're 'only' Roma though, so nobody worries too much about them. Heaven knows what became of them bless them.

The Dutch have given citizenship to large numbers of Somalis, Eritreans & Sudanese, in order that they could more easily leave Holland for 'other EU countries' should they wish. It appears to be their way of getting rid of 'undesirables'....

Back to the Begum girl. I'm glad you have the depth of knowledge and understanding you enjoy, and I fully accept that in reality she'll be allowed back in on appeal. Doesn't make it right though, just makes it legal, which is not the same thing.
There is no easy answer, but to me, and it's only my opinion, any country should be able to declare someone as unwelcome. There have to be times when a country can look to it's own interests,regardless of what they're signed up to, or what clubs they belong to.


The treatment of Roma by the Czech government has been a disgrace. Indeed twenty years ago I won a huge number of Roma cases on the asylum point of this.

Czechs and Slovaks had no problems. Roma did. Thankfully the ECHR upheld that the Czech government were wrong and the Roma were right.

My view, on the facts that I have, is that under ECHR legislation Ms Begum will be equally successful. That many Roma continue to suffer is down to the fact that they are unable to access proper legal representation. Not because the Czech state is acting lawfully. The Czech government seem to be agreeing with you, in that they should be able to disregard their responsibilities to look after their own interests.

My view remains that whilst it is debatable what should happen to Ms Begum, she is the UK's responsibility. The test of a civilization is how we behave to those who do wrong. In our families we care and protect. We do so even when a family member does a bad deed. As a society that wishes to be civilized and regarded as such, we should do likewise.

Who is my neighbour? They asked.

You know the answer to that.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby newgroundrodney » February 21st, 2019, 2:19 pm

What an enjoyable discussion. 'Everything Else' , that's where it's at! No rows, no name calling, plenty of being corrected, but no snidey stuff...great. enjoyed that.
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Re: Shamina Begum

Postby pembsexile » February 21st, 2019, 6:46 pm

Brendan, I'm certainly not foolish enough to argue a point of law with you. I have no doubt that what you say from a legal viewpoint is correct.

However, that does not make it morally correct. You previously mentioned the Germans and the Second World War. The problem that I have with the law is this. It is there to safeguard people and property so that society can function in the best manner. Did the law protect the people of this country in WW2?

You say that you probably know the Barristers who may go on to represent Ms Begam. Picture this scenario. They win their case and she is allowed into the country. By the way, I am referring to her but it could be any one of the ISIS scum who may get back into the country. One of them goes on to commit a terrorist outrage in this country at some stage in the future. What would the Barristers say, ' not my fault Gov, I was just doing my job' perhaps.

We have one chance to stop these people getting in to the country. I completely accept that my view is not a good one in law. That does not make it wrong. I could not live with myself were I to be one of those Barristers. God forbid it happens, I hope they can live with their concience. My family, my values, my country are more important to me than protecting the rights of people who would laugh at you for trying to protect them in court.

Brendan, sometimes the law is not what you think it is. It will offer me and my family no protection at all from these scum. How do I deal with that when I tell my offspring to behave themselves and do not break the law? The annoying thing is that the Human Rights Brigade will walk all over me and my values in an attempt to protect them. It stinks, it is abhorrent and you know it Brendan.
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