I am aware of that. The dividend would be paid to the Supporters Trust as an entity, not to the trust members. Rather than giving away a club for £0 which is sitting on a newly found £1,000,000 in cash.CathedralCounty wrote: January 13th, 2024, 8:01 pmTrust members are not, as I understand it, “shareholders” per se yes they have/had a say in how club is run but are not entitled to any dividends.rncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 6:36 pmIf you have cash in the bank, you 100% can pay a dividend to shareholders.Free beer wrote: January 13th, 2024, 5:30 pm I don't think that you can pay dividends when a company has an accumulated loss. Our loss to date is £390k, I believe, plus the loss for the last year.
Re: Cup windfalls
17Sorry, but that's nonsense. If you own a business as a majority shareholder, and the business is sitting on surplus cash, any business in any walk of life, is highly likely to be paying dividends to its shareholders. It's the reward you get for the risks you take.CathedralCounty wrote: January 13th, 2024, 7:58 pmNope it’s the clubs money and if Huw is dipping into club funds (and I want to stress there is absolutely no suggestion he is or will expect to be) that would be at best iffy at worse fraud or embezzlement.countymadbel wrote: January 13th, 2024, 4:37 pmIt's Huws money as he owns the clubrncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 3:24 pm Assuming we do win on Tuesday which is obviously not a given, how will this affect the takeover?
I have been sceptical about things for a while. The time taken to complete and the fact we're still in the cup. Will it fall through if the financial gap is plugged for a few years?
If not, and the takeover does still go ahead, what happens to the unexpected income? Will it remain in the club or, as the terms have already been agreed, will the extra cash be drawn back into the trust as - for example - a dividend to shareholders, and used to fund the trust's obligations for the next few years?
“Owning” a business does not mean you can dip your hand in the till-that way lies ruin.
Football clubs might be slightly different, especially ours which needs reinvestment rather than extraction of profit, but this is why the original question is so valid.
Re: Cup windfalls
18Fair enough, you may well be right. I'm sure creative accounting could change that though, we've already recreated financial history on a couple of occasions. With cash to play with, I'm sure it would be simple enough to do again.Free beer wrote: January 13th, 2024, 7:20 pmHaving cash is only one of the criteria. I stand by my original point.rncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 6:36 pmIf you have cash in the bank, you 100% can pay a dividend to shareholders.Free beer wrote: January 13th, 2024, 5:30 pm I don't think that you can pay dividends when a company has an accumulated loss. Our loss to date is £390k, I believe, plus the loss for the last year.
Re: Cup windfalls
19Many businesses re invest profits and don't pay dividends especially if they don't have shareholders and HJ won't be dipping his fingers into the till any time soon - if he wanted to make a quick buck he'd have bought a load of holiday lets!rncfc wrote: January 15th, 2024, 9:43 amSorry, but that's nonsense. If you own a business as a majority shareholder, and the business is sitting on surplus cash, any business in any walk of life, is highly likely to be paying dividends to its shareholders. It's the reward you get for the risks you take.CathedralCounty wrote: January 13th, 2024, 7:58 pmNope it’s the clubs money and if Huw is dipping into club funds (and I want to stress there is absolutely no suggestion he is or will expect to be) that would be at best iffy at worse fraud or embezzlement.countymadbel wrote: January 13th, 2024, 4:37 pmIt's Huws money as he owns the clubrncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 3:24 pm Assuming we do win on Tuesday which is obviously not a given, how will this affect the takeover?
I have been sceptical about things for a while. The time taken to complete and the fact we're still in the cup. Will it fall through if the financial gap is plugged for a few years?
If not, and the takeover does still go ahead, what happens to the unexpected income? Will it remain in the club or, as the terms have already been agreed, will the extra cash be drawn back into the trust as - for example - a dividend to shareholders, and used to fund the trust's obligations for the next few years?
“Owning” a business does not mean you can dip your hand in the till-that way lies ruin.
Football clubs might be slightly different, especially ours which needs reinvestment rather than extraction of profit, but this is why the original question is so valid.
As for the '£1 million' being quoted by some - even IF we do play Man Utd - we won't clear anywhere near that amount after costs.
Re: Cup windfalls
20Why not? The accumulated losses will be covered by borrowing. If you then in a future year pay the interest on that borrowing and make a profit, what is to stop you paying a dividend if that is what you want to do?Free beer wrote: January 13th, 2024, 5:30 pm I don't think that you can pay dividends when a company has an accumulated loss. Our loss to date is £390k, I believe, plus the loss for the last year.
Some of the water companies have paid dividends down the years by borrowing against the assets they "inherited" when the companies were set up and effectively handing out that borrowed money as dividends, some of them while making an operational loss.
Re: Cup windfalls
21I'm fairly confident HJ will be reinvesting into the club too, I'm not trying to suggest anything unethical on his part. I'm just saying that the suggestion of fraud for paying a dividend from a football club's profits is laughable.CathedralCounty wrote: January 15th, 2024, 10:00 amMany businesses re invest profits and don't pay dividends especially if they don't have shareholders and HJ won't be dipping his fingers into the till any time soon - if he wanted to make a quick buck he'd have bought a load of holiday lets!rncfc wrote: January 15th, 2024, 9:43 amSorry, but that's nonsense. If you own a business as a majority shareholder, and the business is sitting on surplus cash, any business in any walk of life, is highly likely to be paying dividends to its shareholders. It's the reward you get for the risks you take.CathedralCounty wrote: January 13th, 2024, 7:58 pmNope it’s the clubs money and if Huw is dipping into club funds (and I want to stress there is absolutely no suggestion he is or will expect to be) that would be at best iffy at worse fraud or embezzlement.countymadbel wrote: January 13th, 2024, 4:37 pmIt's Huws money as he owns the clubrncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 3:24 pm Assuming we do win on Tuesday which is obviously not a given, how will this affect the takeover?
I have been sceptical about things for a while. The time taken to complete and the fact we're still in the cup. Will it fall through if the financial gap is plugged for a few years?
If not, and the takeover does still go ahead, what happens to the unexpected income? Will it remain in the club or, as the terms have already been agreed, will the extra cash be drawn back into the trust as - for example - a dividend to shareholders, and used to fund the trust's obligations for the next few years?
“Owning” a business does not mean you can dip your hand in the till-that way lies ruin.
Football clubs might be slightly different, especially ours which needs reinvestment rather than extraction of profit, but this is why the original question is so valid.
As for the '£1 million' being quoted by some - even IF we do play Man Utd - we won't clear anywhere near that amount after costs.
Re: Cup windfalls
22Cross purposes I think - I was talking about an owner (a single owner or family) 'taking out' money - as opposed to a dividend per se - 'fraud' may have been a poor chose of words but it would not be a case of saying - 'oooh FA cup prize money - I'll have a bit of that please I need it for my new range rover' - at best it'd be poor business sense at worst potentially iffy - my point is that 'owning' a business (and I don't mean selling a few bits on ebay I mean a proper legit business employing people and VAT registered, etc) even outright doesn't mean that person(s) can help themselves.rncfc wrote: January 15th, 2024, 10:52 amI'm fairly confident HJ will be reinvesting into the club too, I'm not trying to suggest anything unethical on his part. I'm just saying that the suggestion of fraud for paying a dividend from a football club's profits is laughable.CathedralCounty wrote: January 15th, 2024, 10:00 amMany businesses re invest profits and don't pay dividends especially if they don't have shareholders and HJ won't be dipping his fingers into the till any time soon - if he wanted to make a quick buck he'd have bought a load of holiday lets!rncfc wrote: January 15th, 2024, 9:43 amSorry, but that's nonsense. If you own a business as a majority shareholder, and the business is sitting on surplus cash, any business in any walk of life, is highly likely to be paying dividends to its shareholders. It's the reward you get for the risks you take.CathedralCounty wrote: January 13th, 2024, 7:58 pmNope it’s the clubs money and if Huw is dipping into club funds (and I want to stress there is absolutely no suggestion he is or will expect to be) that would be at best iffy at worse fraud or embezzlement.countymadbel wrote: January 13th, 2024, 4:37 pmIt's Huws money as he owns the clubrncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 3:24 pm Assuming we do win on Tuesday which is obviously not a given, how will this affect the takeover?
I have been sceptical about things for a while. The time taken to complete and the fact we're still in the cup. Will it fall through if the financial gap is plugged for a few years?
If not, and the takeover does still go ahead, what happens to the unexpected income? Will it remain in the club or, as the terms have already been agreed, will the extra cash be drawn back into the trust as - for example - a dividend to shareholders, and used to fund the trust's obligations for the next few years?
“Owning” a business does not mean you can dip your hand in the till-that way lies ruin.
Football clubs might be slightly different, especially ours which needs reinvestment rather than extraction of profit, but this is why the original question is so valid.
As for the '£1 million' being quoted by some - even IF we do play Man Utd - we won't clear anywhere near that amount after costs.
HJ certainly won't be doing it.
Re: Cup windfalls
23Agreed.CathedralCounty wrote: January 15th, 2024, 11:41 amCross purposes I think - I was talking about an owner (a single owner or family) 'taking out' money - as opposed to a dividend per se - 'fraud' may have been a poor chose of words but it would not be a case of saying - 'oooh FA cup prize money - I'll have a bit of that please I need it for my new range rover' - at best it'd be poor business sense at worst potentially iffy - my point is that 'owning' a business (and I don't mean selling a few bits on ebay I mean a proper legit business employing people and VAT registered, etc) even outright doesn't mean that person(s) can help themselves.rncfc wrote: January 15th, 2024, 10:52 amI'm fairly confident HJ will be reinvesting into the club too, I'm not trying to suggest anything unethical on his part. I'm just saying that the suggestion of fraud for paying a dividend from a football club's profits is laughable.CathedralCounty wrote: January 15th, 2024, 10:00 amMany businesses re invest profits and don't pay dividends especially if they don't have shareholders and HJ won't be dipping his fingers into the till any time soon - if he wanted to make a quick buck he'd have bought a load of holiday lets!rncfc wrote: January 15th, 2024, 9:43 amSorry, but that's nonsense. If you own a business as a majority shareholder, and the business is sitting on surplus cash, any business in any walk of life, is highly likely to be paying dividends to its shareholders. It's the reward you get for the risks you take.CathedralCounty wrote: January 13th, 2024, 7:58 pmNope it’s the clubs money and if Huw is dipping into club funds (and I want to stress there is absolutely no suggestion he is or will expect to be) that would be at best iffy at worse fraud or embezzlement.countymadbel wrote: January 13th, 2024, 4:37 pmIt's Huws money as he owns the clubrncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 3:24 pm Assuming we do win on Tuesday which is obviously not a given, how will this affect the takeover?
I have been sceptical about things for a while. The time taken to complete and the fact we're still in the cup. Will it fall through if the financial gap is plugged for a few years?
If not, and the takeover does still go ahead, what happens to the unexpected income? Will it remain in the club or, as the terms have already been agreed, will the extra cash be drawn back into the trust as - for example - a dividend to shareholders, and used to fund the trust's obligations for the next few years?
“Owning” a business does not mean you can dip your hand in the till-that way lies ruin.
Football clubs might be slightly different, especially ours which needs reinvestment rather than extraction of profit, but this is why the original question is so valid.
As for the '£1 million' being quoted by some - even IF we do play Man Utd - we won't clear anywhere near that amount after costs.
HJ certainly won't be doing it.
Re: Cup windfalls
24You can only pay dividends if you have distributable reserves available irrespective of your cash positionrncfc wrote: January 13th, 2024, 6:36 pmIf you have cash in the bank, you 100% can pay a dividend to shareholders.Free beer wrote: January 13th, 2024, 5:30 pm I don't think that you can pay dividends when a company has an accumulated loss. Our loss to date is £390k, I believe, plus the loss for the last year.
Re: Cup windfalls
25The cup run to date and certainly if we beat Eastleigh prize money and TV money will go a long way to filling the black hole created by the Trust and their lack of management skill.
The take over was required to secure competent management but also a party able to finance the loss and keep the lights on. The question now is that the money required to keep the lights on is reduced from the cup run, will HJ still commit the same cash, allowing the windfall to increase player budget / infra structure improvements or maintain the same budget approach and so his investment requirement will be less?
The take over was required to secure competent management but also a party able to finance the loss and keep the lights on. The question now is that the money required to keep the lights on is reduced from the cup run, will HJ still commit the same cash, allowing the windfall to increase player budget / infra structure improvements or maintain the same budget approach and so his investment requirement will be less?
Re: Cup windfalls
26Presumably the terms (the £500K) remain the same and the cup 'windfall' (IF we end up playing Man Utd) is moot albeit a huge positive.County ranger wrote: January 15th, 2024, 2:09 pm The cup run to date and certainly if we beat Eastleigh prize money and TV money will go a long way to filling the black hole created by the Trust and their lack of management skill.
The take over was required to secure competent management but also a party able to finance the loss and keep the lights on. The question now is that the money required to keep the lights on is reduced from the cup run, will HJ still commit the same cash, allowing the windfall to increase player budget / infra structure improvements or maintain the same budget approach and so his investment requirement will be less?
Re: Cup windfalls
27If there's unexpected(unbudgeted) monies flowing prior to and immediately after the handover then HJ can do the Hokey Kokey -CathedralCounty wrote: January 15th, 2024, 2:18 pmPresumably the terms (the £500K) remain the same and the cup 'windfall' (IF we end up playing Man Utd) is moot albeit a huge positive.County ranger wrote: January 15th, 2024, 2:09 pm The cup run to date and certainly if we beat Eastleigh prize money and TV money will go a long way to filling the black hole created by the Trust and their lack of management skill.
The take over was required to secure competent management but also a party able to finance the loss and keep the lights on. The question now is that the money required to keep the lights on is reduced from the cup run, will HJ still commit the same cash, allowing the windfall to increase player budget / infra structure improvements or maintain the same budget approach and so his investment requirement will be less?
You put your pledge money in,
Your pledge money out,
In, out, in out.
Shake it all about.
You sell your better players
And you buy in dross
And that's what it's all about.
Oh wanky wanky County
Re: Cup windfalls
28He could but he won't - love that tune btw! - now singing around the house - Mrs Cathedral who is already considering having me committed, now thinks I'm even more bonkers.whoareya wrote: January 15th, 2024, 2:31 pmIf there's unexpected(unbudgeted) monies flowing prior to and immediately after the handover then HJ can do the Hokey Kokey -CathedralCounty wrote: January 15th, 2024, 2:18 pmPresumably the terms (the £500K) remain the same and the cup 'windfall' (IF we end up playing Man Utd) is moot albeit a huge positive.County ranger wrote: January 15th, 2024, 2:09 pm The cup run to date and certainly if we beat Eastleigh prize money and TV money will go a long way to filling the black hole created by the Trust and their lack of management skill.
The take over was required to secure competent management but also a party able to finance the loss and keep the lights on. The question now is that the money required to keep the lights on is reduced from the cup run, will HJ still commit the same cash, allowing the windfall to increase player budget / infra structure improvements or maintain the same budget approach and so his investment requirement will be less?
You put your pledge money in,
Your pledge money out,
In, out, in out.
Shake it all about.
You sell your better players
And you buy in dross
And that's what it's all about.
Oh wanky wanky County
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