Emma Hayes (Chelsea women's manager) appears to shove an opposition manager after a loss in a cup final a petulant action - violent even?, then counter accuses him of 'male aggression'?! what the heck is that all about - I've been accused of all sorts of things for being cynical about certain aspects [of] women's football and narratives around it but actually feel the mainly female pundits have this one right - that Hayes acted like a buffoon here and her 'male aggression' comments are just silly and as has been said undermine and de values the real and awful and often rather pathetic 'male aggression' that does occasionally rear its head in/around sport.

Sadly playing the gender card is too often the last refuge of toxic/aggressive women - he didn't 'make [me] do it' and he wasn't 'asking for it' - YOU shoved him and being a female doesn't/shouldn't give you a free pass to do that.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... s-eidevall

https://www.gbnews.com/sport/football/s ... ea-arsenal

[edit] Female pundit on a women;s football podcast was very disappointed in Hayes' comments - interesting as, as above, the female pundits are just not buying the 'male aggression' line:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/au ... all-weekly

In the very early days of the 20th century a member of what was then the Royal Irish Constabulary gave evidence under oath that the defendant had struck the officer a a very hard blow on the fist with his eye.

Let's get away from the gender war. Some people are toxic, people are made up of men and women, black and white, Protestant and Catholic, Jew and Gentile. No strata of society produces any more toxic people than any other.

If you'd seen the footage on the 'Womens Football Show' you'd understand the complaint better. The male Arsenal Manager did invade the space of a Chelsea player in an aggressive manner when she was attempting to take a throw in late in the game. There was an agreement before the game that they would use one ball as opposed to multiple balls (I wasn't aware of such an agreement existing before in football, perhaps it's only in the women's game) and the player was trying to use an alternate ball, so he had a reason for protest. But there are ways of doing so. He seemed to step over a line on what would be acceptable towards a female, but it was a bit of gamesmanship by both sides...

wattsville_boy wrote: April 3rd, 2024, 1:34 pm If you'd seen the footage on the 'Womens Football Show' you'd understand the complaint better. The male Arsenal Manager did invade the space of a Chelsea player in an aggressive manner when she was attempting to take a throw in late in the game. There was an agreement before the game that they would use one ball as opposed to multiple balls (I wasn't aware of such an agreement existing before in football, perhaps it's only in the women's game) and the player was trying to use an alternate ball, so he had a reason for protest. But there are ways of doing so. He seemed to step over a line on what would be acceptable towards a female, but it was a bit of gamesmanship by both sides...

He seemed to step over a line on what would be acceptable towards a female why so? - men are involved in women's football ditto women involved in men's football - some 'verbals' and some level of physical contact will occur within/outwith the boundaries of the laws of the game - as a female pundit on another women's football show [podcast] said it was deflection by Hayes (an age old managerial trick practiced by male managers for decades of course) but to pull the gender card was plain wrong in a sport that greatly benefits from male involvement/expertise/sponsorship/fans.

Equally had a male manager shoved her imagine the backlash and call for bans/sacking/criminal charges/'encouraging male violence to women', etc

Its actually really refreshing that she has been roundly criticized and the women's game now seems more able to reflect and criticize itself which shows its gaining traction and maturity as a product.

She shouldn't have shoved him but he shouldn't have been in her players face. Neither are acceptable in football but the first act (male intimidation of a female) brought about the second act.

Best option would have been to punish both Managers. Instead it's swept under the carpet...

wattsville_boy wrote: April 4th, 2024, 11:15 am She shouldn't have shoved him but he shouldn't have been in her players face. Neither are acceptable in football but the first act (male intimidation of a female) brought about the second act.

Best option would have been to punish both Managers. Instead it's swept under the carpet...

Sadly the 'he made me do it' argument is used in a lot of female on male domestic abuse cases so its weightier than you may think (and is partly why I have gotten on my hobby horse on this one) women have agency so they should use it - grown ups should not behave like 5 year olds whatever their gender but I'd agree - sanction both managers and be done with it - ignoring it has made the WSL look a bit silly.

CathedralCounty wrote: April 5th, 2024, 9:19 am

wattsville_boy wrote: April 4th, 2024, 11:15 am She shouldn't have shoved him but he shouldn't have been in her players face. Neither are acceptable in football but the first act (male intimidation of a female) brought about the second act.

Best option would have been to punish both Managers. Instead it's swept under the carpet...

Sadly the 'he made me do it' argument is used in a lot of female on male domestic abuse cases so its weightier than you may think (and is partly why I have gotten on my hobby horse on this one) women have agency so they should use it - grown ups should not behave like 5 year olds whatever their gender but I'd agree - sanction both managers and be done with it - ignoring it has made the WSL look a bit silly.

I think you're missing the point. Male aggressiveness in a mainly female environment should be called out and sanctioned. I worked for 37 years as a Nurse, which when I started was a largely a female profession. Over the years many men joined the profession from 'traditional male jobs'. Those that survived learned to adjust their behaviour with women but could still demonstrate appropriate action if aggression was shown to them. I don't think the male Arsenal Manager acted inappropriately to the situation, thereby causing the bust up post match.

The WSL needed to issue a statement that although the post-match behaviour was a bit childish, that the Arsenal Manager should not have reacted in the fashion that he did. Perhaps an 'awareness' course would be recommended...

I think the term 'male aggressiveness' lends itself to the idea that aggression is a male problem. Women can be just as aggressive as men, yet the term 'female aggressiveness' doesn't seem to exist. Neither does the term 'womansplaining'. All sorts of antics happen in the managers area in the men's game, much worse than happened in this particular women's game. If the women's game can't handle so called male aggression then maybe it's time to take the men out of the women's game and the women out of the men's.

aberexile wrote: April 5th, 2024, 3:26 pm I think the term 'male aggressiveness' lends itself to the idea that aggression is a male problem. Women can be just as aggressive as men, yet the term 'female aggressiveness' doesn't seem to exist. Neither does the term 'womansplaining'. All sorts of antics happen in the managers area in the men's game, much worse than happened in this particular women's game. If the women's game can't handle so called male aggression then maybe it's time to take the men out of the women's game and the women out of the men's.

I think the difference is that if any dispute were to become violent then there would be only one outcome. And both sexes are aware of this...

aberexile wrote: April 5th, 2024, 3:26 pm I think the term 'male aggressiveness' lends itself to the idea that aggression is a male problem. Women can be just as aggressive as men, yet the term 'female aggressiveness' doesn't seem to exist. Neither does the term 'womansplaining'. All sorts of antics happen in the managers area in the men's game, much worse than happened in this particular women's game. If the women's game can't handle so called male aggression then maybe it's time to take the men out of the women's game and the women out of the men's.

But I do understand your point. I blame Maggie Thatcher, who compensated for being born female by displaying 'male' aggressive tactics. I met many aggressive women in positions of power in my professional life. You find ways of dealing with them without towering above them and getting in their face. And that is my point...

wattsville_boy wrote: April 5th, 2024, 6:34 pm

aberexile wrote: April 5th, 2024, 3:26 pm I think the term 'male aggressiveness' lends itself to the idea that aggression is a male problem. Women can be just as aggressive as men, yet the term 'female aggressiveness' doesn't seem to exist. Neither does the term 'womansplaining'. All sorts of antics happen in the managers area in the men's game, much worse than happened in this particular women's game. If the women's game can't handle so called male aggression then maybe it's time to take the men out of the women's game and the women out of the men's.

But I do understand your point. I blame Maggie Thatcher, who compensated for being born female by displaying 'male' aggressive tactics. I met many aggressive women in positions of power in my professional life. You find ways of dealing with them without towering above them and getting in their face. And that is my point...

I don't understand what 'male aggressive tactics' are. I've had women towering over me and getting in my face in the past. I've always found ways of dealing with those women without being aggressive back and getting in their face. Like I said, men don't own aggression. In this case, the match in question, the Arsenal manager was hardly aggressive. Emma Hayes was far more aggressive than him.

aberexile wrote: April 5th, 2024, 7:56 pm

wattsville_boy wrote: April 5th, 2024, 6:34 pm

aberexile wrote: April 5th, 2024, 3:26 pm I think the term 'male aggressiveness' lends itself to the idea that aggression is a male problem. Women can be just as aggressive as men, yet the term 'female aggressiveness' doesn't seem to exist. Neither does the term 'womansplaining'. All sorts of antics happen in the managers area in the men's game, much worse than happened in this particular women's game. If the women's game can't handle so called male aggression then maybe it's time to take the men out of the women's game and the women out of the men's.

But I do understand your point. I blame Maggie Thatcher, who compensated for being born female by displaying 'male' aggressive tactics. I met many aggressive women in positions of power in my professional life. You find ways of dealing with them without towering above them and getting in their face. And that is my point...

I don't understand what 'male aggressive tactics' are. I've had women towering over me and getting in my face in the past. I've always found ways of dealing with those women without being aggressive back and getting in their face. Like I said, men don't own aggression. In this case, the match in question, the Arsenal manager was hardly aggressive. Emma Hayes was far more aggressive than him.

He was aggressive to a Chelsea player trying to take a quick throw in at the end of the game. She had picking up a football which wasn't the single ball that both sides had agreed to use prior to the game. He prevented her from taking the throw in and was shouting at her, so I can understand why Hayes was upset. But I'm not condoning her actions in pushing him away after full time...

I’ve been stabbed in the neck by a very violent woman it blooming well hurt! and was no less “aggressive” than had it been a man, interesting too that in domestic abuse cases either against men or in mutually violent relationships (perhaps due to size disparity?) are far more likely to use weapons than men.

In the football/sport context men benefit from women in the men’s game and women benefit from men in their game (a lot of dads for example run their daughters team a fair few women ref or act as physiotherapists in the men’s game for example) it would be a regressive step to drive a wedge based on the silly and nebulous idea of “male aggression”.

I’d FAR rather a bloke square up to me if it’s a female I lose either way-let her attack me lose my dignity and get hurt, fight back get condemned and prosecuted and almost certainly sacked from my job, now I can handle an aggressive male I tend to just brazen it out or pull an Arthur Shelby (and sigh a huge sigh of relief when they don’t call my bluff!) but a violent woman? A far harder opponent and they know it.