New low.

Newport County natter & football chatter.
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Stan A. Einstein

New low.

Postby Stan A. Einstein » July 31st, 2020, 11:31 am

Hate to quote the Mail on line, but their stats are correct I suggest you read the article in full, just Google it, but if someone who knows how to post a link I would be grateful.

500 people every year in the UK alone take their own lives having become addicted to gambling. The overwhelming majority of these people are young men. On line apps which allow this are of course the 'crack cocaine' of gambling.

There is a large advert, pretending to be a news story, about a link up between Newport County and gaming firm.

I love football and Newport County. Competitive sport is healthy. Watching County encourages young lads to go and have a kick about with their mates. It inspires camaraderie and lifelong friendships. It helps relieve tension after a mundane week. It allows me and I expect others to be wide eyed innocent 10 years old, if only for a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon.

And now those with charge of our club are trying to make a few bob setting up an online betting ap'.

Be under no illusion. Those who facilitate troubled young men to bet their livelihood, secretly in their bedrooms, have blood on their hands.
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Countymax

Re: New low.

Postby Countymax » July 31st, 2020, 12:21 pm

I don't agree with such a puritanical stance on gambling. I'm lucky i've never been afflicted with a gambling addiction and I feel sorry for anyone who finds themself in this position but it's not illegal and in my opinion it's not even immoral. I enjoy a flutter in moderation as I enjoy a drink (and the occasional tobacco product but that's another can of worms). I'm really pleased we've got a decent money spinner for the club and to insinuate that the club has blood on it's hands and therefore responsible for people harming themselves as a result is not fair in the slightest.
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: New low.

Postby Stan A. Einstein » July 31st, 2020, 12:31 pm

Countymax wrote:I don't agree with such a puritanical stance on gambling. I'm lucky i've never been afflicted with a gambling addiction and I feel sorry for anyone who finds themself in this position but it's not illegal and in my opinion it's not even immoral. I enjoy a flutter in moderation as I enjoy a drink (and the occasional tobacco product but that's another can of worms). I'm really pleased we've got a decent money spinner for the club and to insinuate that the club has blood on it's hands and therefore responsible for people harming themselves as a result is not fair in the slightest.


You are of course entitled to your view.

However let me disabuse you of one misconception. I insinuate nothing. Gambling app's on mobile phones are like crack cocaine. They encourage those with a gambling habit to do so in private and to excess. Young men, especially but not exclusively, are 15 times more likely to take their own lives if they become addicted to gambling.

Those who facilitate and encourage this have blood on their hands. I state that as a firm belief.
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halfmoon

Re: New low.

Postby halfmoon » July 31st, 2020, 12:45 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Countymax wrote:I don't agree with such a puritanical stance on gambling. I'm lucky i've never been afflicted with a gambling addiction and I feel sorry for anyone who finds themself in this position but it's not illegal and in my opinion it's not even immoral. I enjoy a flutter in moderation as I enjoy a drink (and the occasional tobacco product but that's another can of worms). I'm really pleased we've got a decent money spinner for the club and to insinuate that the club has blood on it's hands and therefore responsible for people harming themselves as a result is not fair in the slightest.


You are of course entitled to your view.

However let me disabuse you of one misconception. I insinuate nothing. Gambling app's on mobile phones are like crack cocaine. They encourage those with a gambling habit to do so in private and to excess. Young men, especially but not exclusively, are 15 times more likely to take their own lives if they become addicted to gambling.

Those who facilitate and encourage this have blood on their hands. I state that as a firm belief.


I'll agree with this much. The amount of young guys on our terraces that are glued to a gambling app on their phone while the game is going on is rather worrying. It's just so easy to chuck money away these days.

Comedian and former gambling addict John Robins on these apps: "If I had the same problem now I'd probably be dead, because I'd have killed myself": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_iPiFPVVHw

I won't go as far as the language used by Stan above (though maybe I should), but I'm not a fun of the club associating with these companies, and I don't think 'beggars can't be choosers' is a good enough excuse.
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Papski2

Re: New low.

Postby Papski2 » July 31st, 2020, 12:48 pm

Is it acceptable we sell alcohol at the ground and made money from Bar Amber?

Genuine question.
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: New low.

Postby Stan A. Einstein » July 31st, 2020, 12:58 pm

Papski2 wrote:Is it acceptable we sell alcohol at the ground and made money from Bar Amber?

Genuine question.


And a fair question.

My view. You can't eliminate vice. Whether it be drugs, alcohol is a drug, sex or gambling. Therefore it has to be licensed, or it is run by organized crime.

So for me you have to allow for pubs and bookmakers. But you shouldn't sell alcohol to a drunk, or to a child and I believe that there is the same distinction to be made between a bookie's shop and a gambling ap.

But as I say your question does pose a moral dilemma.
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Papski2

Re: New low.

Postby Papski2 » July 31st, 2020, 1:03 pm

Just curious. I think your principle and heart may be coming from the right place.

But, when our club plays in the Sky Bet League Two, maybe we all have blood on our hands.
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halfmoon

Re: New low.

Postby halfmoon » July 31st, 2020, 1:06 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Papski2 wrote:Is it acceptable we sell alcohol at the ground and made money from Bar Amber?

Genuine question.


And a fair question.

My view. You can't eliminate vice. Whether it be drugs, alcohol is a drug, sex or gambling. Therefore it has to be licensed, or it is run by organized crime.

So for me you have to allow for pubs and bookmakers. But you shouldn't sell alcohol to a drunk, or to a child and I believe that there is the same distinction to be made between a bookie's shop and a gambling ap.

But as I say your question does pose a moral dilemma.


It's difficult to compare the two. What makes gambling far more dangerous in many people's estimation is how easy it is to get involved with and how quickly it can become damaging. So while you might spend all your money on booze and destroy your health over a long period, it's so quickly for gambling to get out of control, with people getting caught in a spiral of debt before they even know what's happened - that's what causes people to take their own life. Watch how it's described in that video above. I don't think it's regulated tightly enough at all, especially around football.
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: New low.

Postby Stan A. Einstein » July 31st, 2020, 1:17 pm

Papski2 wrote:Just curious. I think your principle and heart may be coming from the right place.

But, when our club plays in the Sky Bet League Two, maybe we all have blood on our hands.


We all have blood on our hands. Every time you turn the key to the ignition, wars fought over oil.

But, and I think it is an important distinction. Gambling is for some people a problem. However gambling app's serve no purpose but to remove cash from the addicted. It's not a flutter on the Derby or a small wager on County winning 4-0.

Also two really frightening statistics. Gambling addiction increases suicide in young men fifteen fold. Suicide is the most common cause of death in young men.

Newport County on the one hand promote mental health well being in young men. And Newport County ally themselves and make common cause with a system which causes young men to end their lives.

Anyone who has ever sat with a mother who has lost a son that way will have very little difficulty in using the term blood on their hands. And I don't want more.
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Papski2

Re: New low.

Postby Papski2 » July 31st, 2020, 1:30 pm

halfmoon wrote:It's difficult to compare the two.


We could be going down the rabbit hole here.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:We all have blood on our hands. Every time you turn the key to the ignition, wars fought over oil.


And this is the hole.

We can argue down to the boots the players wear being made by chinese kids, but as stated its all "legal".

The next guy may say about how his family has been affected by alcohol and how we shouldn't be serving alcohol at games. Where will it end.

But I do feel your cause, just not the blood on the hands.

I will go as far to say it is something the trust members should be consulted on prior to launch to thrash through to ensure it meets with the ethos of the community.
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llanwern exile

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Re: New low.

Postby llanwern exile » July 31st, 2020, 1:43 pm

For someone who has lost someone very close to me because of gambling addiction I have to agree wholeheartedly with Brendan on this occation, it is not a very nice thing to sit with a loved one just after she has been told her husband has took his own life through a gambling addiction, shame on the club for associating itself with this app.
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: New low.

Postby Stan A. Einstein » July 31st, 2020, 1:46 pm

Papski2 wrote:
halfmoon wrote:It's difficult to compare the two.


We could be going down the rabbit hole here.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:We all have blood on our hands. Every time you turn the key to the ignition, wars fought over oil.


And this is the hole.

We can argue down to the boots the players wear being made by chinese kids, but as stated its all "legal".

The next guy may say about how his family has been affected by alcohol and how we shouldn't be serving alcohol at games. Where will it end.

But I do feel your cause, just not the blood on the hands.

I will go as far to say it is something the trust members should be consulted on prior to launch to thrash through to ensure it meets with the ethos of the community.


You are making good points.

On moral issues there are certain things which are clear and some which are not.

One may ask why when Afghan tribesmen shot at Russian occupying forces they were the good guys, did they became the bad guys when the Russians left and they shot at the occupying British and Americans?

When it comes to right and wrong only the very stupid would not see the danger of taking moral high ground.

However for me there is one simple point. It is the app itself. It serves no purpose other than to empty pockets. Putting a quid on County to win 4-0 probably adds fun to Phil in Northampton's afternoon. If Phil were to say to his wife at five o'clock on a Saturday afternoon. " Sorry, no going out tonight for a meal, sadly lost all my money on Newport County only getting three corners in the second half" I suspect Mrs Phil would be off to the divorce lawyers first thing Monday morning.

And that I think is my point. Betting Apps on mobile phones go well beyond any moral ambiguity.
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Papski2

Re: New low.

Postby Papski2 » July 31st, 2020, 2:03 pm

llanwern exile wrote:For someone who has lost someone very close to me because of gambling addiction I have to agree wholeheartedly with Brendan on this occation, it is not a very nice thing to sit with a loved one just after she has been told her husband has took his own life through a gambling addiction, shame on the club for associating itself with this app.


I'm sorry to read that.


Stan A. Einstein wrote:And that I think is my point. Betting Apps on mobile phones go well beyond any moral ambiguity.


My last point on this due to the personal nature of the debate, I dont want to come across as insensitive.

I do agree with the principle but we have been sponsored by 32 Red, Interbet and Paddy Power in the last 7 years and the fan base hasn't taken a disliking to it that I am aware of.

If theres a vote on it, I'd have to consider it deeply. It is a moral debate. But it is legal and I think the blood on the hands comment is unfair.

Do we as fans, accept the moral high ground is the place to be, if we were to go down after introducing morals to every decision from the beef in the burgers to name on the players boots and our income is slashed by this? I don't think we're there as a club.
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DeePeeNCAFC

Re: New low.

Postby DeePeeNCAFC » July 31st, 2020, 2:25 pm

Stan. I think you're bang on correct raising this, thanks, but apart from raising awareness and education of the problems of compulsive gambling and high suicide rates in young men, not sure what can be done.

Football is riddled with gambling, a large % of kits in the top divisions are sponsored by gambling companies, the league's divisions sponsored by one and their money filters down to clubs like ours.

These companies obviously want to maximise business and apps are a large part of that. I was in a Wetherspoons in England this week and felt 'obliged' to download their app to order my food and drink. It was remarkably easy and helped social distancing but, really, it's no different to downloading a gambling app to do my business that way.

Gambling companies are forced to spend a % of their income promoting gambling support lines and initiatives. I bet (no pun intended) they'd rather not do so. The PFA support players with addictions and rightly so. I'm not sure much more can be done other than raising awareness and supporting those who need help. Sad but true.
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: New low.

Postby Stan A. Einstein » July 31st, 2020, 2:26 pm

Papski2 wrote:
llanwern exile wrote:For someone who has lost someone very close to me because of gambling addiction I have to agree wholeheartedly with Brendan on this occation, it is not a very nice thing to sit with a loved one just after she has been told her husband has took his own life through a gambling addiction, shame on the club for associating itself with this app.


I'm sorry to read that.


Stan A. Einstein wrote:And that I think is my point. Betting Apps on mobile phones go well beyond any moral ambiguity.


My last point on this due to the personal nature of the debate, I dont want to come across as insensitive.

I do agree with the principle but we have been sponsored by 32 Red, Interbet and Paddy Power in the last 7 years and the fan base hasn't taken a disliking to it that I am aware of.

If theres a vote on it, I'd have to consider it deeply. It is a moral debate. But it is legal and I think the blood on the hands comment is unfair.

Do we as fans, accept the moral high ground is the place to be, if we were to go down after introducing morals to every decision from the beef in the burgers to name on the players boots and our income is slashed by this? I don't think we're there as a club.


I did object, and said so to Interbet and 32 Red. But, and I accept that this is subjective, this App crosses a line.

By way of analogy. A responsible parent might take the view that his or her 15 year old child was old enough to have a glass of wine with their Sunday lunch. Some might argue that was irresponsible and that would be a valid opinion.

However I don't think any responsible parent would think their 15 year old child having a bottle of gin in their bedroom was acceptable.

It may be that I am puritanical. So be it. But whilst I disapprove of Sky Bet, 32 Red etc, I know I have to live with those. Betting Apps I regard as evil. But I can't stop them. Albeit I would if I could. However for me, for my club to facilitate this product which I genuinely believe does result in young lives being wasted is simply and unambiguously wrong.
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