Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 10:03 am

CathedralCounty wrote: January 5th, 2024, 9:07 am

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 4th, 2024, 11:35 pm

County ranger wrote: January 4th, 2024, 3:11 pm
County will not sustain gates > 5,000 never has been or will be a football city.

That is the attitude which I find so depressing. As soon as you believe you're beaten you are.

Some things just are some things work in Newport some things don't places have their own culture and thought process - again I'd agree there is a little bit of a tendency to be negative in Newport but there are lots of reasons for that - despite the rose tinted view if we looks back at attendances over the piece, even if we discount the 25 years in non league - County have never had particularly big attendances (limited of course by the relatively small Somerton Park) - I do feel 5,000 home fans is about our limit in the league unless we reach the top 2 divisions, of course if we get to the top 2 divisions the 'gate' becomes less important compared to commercial/sponsorship income in any case.

https://european-football-statistics.co ... e/newc.htm

A few towns with similar or lower populations than Newport.

Preston, Huddersfield, Burnley, Ipswich. I could go on.

Now why do you believe the populations of those towns are prepared to watch their local football team when the people of Newport are not? My belief is that Newport County have been badly administeted. My belief is the people of Newport are no different from the people of anywhere else. My belief is that if Newport County were administered properly our club could be as successful as the teams representing the towns I've mentioned above.

Saying Newport is not a football town, saying the people of Newport are only intetested in booze and bookies, is simply making excuses. I am absolutely open to listening to counter arguments but not to bear assertions. If you genuinely believe that Newportonians are different to people elsewhere tell me why.

County ranger wrote: January 5th, 2024, 2:10 pm




Stan as an example look at Portsmouth and Sunderland I would expect them to get 20,000 in the National League they are football towns, it is not negative it is fact Newport in my 50 plus years of support is just not wired for football. The near valley towns tend to support Cardiff (they did before we went out of the league and were in the same division as Cardiff), there are also the rugby fans may watch the occasional game but are not fans - I am a ST holder but have never watched a Dragons game and I am probably quite typical the two sport people are I suspect in the minority.
There are other towns /cities which are not football orientated Fleetwood, Burton lower average attendance than us in L1 a better stadium would help as it did for Cardiff and Swansea but I doubt County will ever be that well supported.

County ranger wrote: January 5th, 2024, 2:10 pm Stan as an example look at Portsmouth and Sunderland I would expect them to get 20,000 in the National League they are football towns, it is not negative it is fact Newport in my 50 plus years of support is just not wired for football. The near valley towns tend to support Cardiff (they did before we went out of the league and were in the same division as Cardiff), there are also the rugby fans may watch the occasional game but are not fans - I am a ST holder but have never watched a Dragons game and I am probably quite typical the two sport people are I suspect in the minority.
There are other towns /cities which are not football orientated Fleetwood, Burton lower average attendance than us in L1 a better stadium would help as it did for Cardiff and Swansea but I doubt County will ever be that well supported.

G Guest wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:10 pm The Dragons issued 4,670 tickets for their Christmas match v Scarlets. So on a good day they are doing no better than County. Even if there is little overlap between the football and rugby crowds there are only about 10,000 people attending matches at RP for both codes added together even for popular games. So having a population of 160,000 is not having an affect.

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 1:55 pm

Jonesy3 wrote: January 5th, 2024, 12:15 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 10:34 am Yes these clubs do have better stadia. These clubs do have more flexible ticket arraingements. That is because they are properly administered.

Now get back to work.

Properly administered??

Preston North End - gross debt of £78m at the end of the last financial year, a £15m increase on the previous year.
Huddersfield Town - had to be saved from administration last year by new owners and whose previous owner wrote off £40m in loans owed to him.
Ipswich Town - placed into administration last year.
Burnley - placed under a transfer embargo last year and were previously the subject of an EFL investigation into their dubious ownership structure.

Why are you making these things up?

Football finances are murky but Ipswich in administration last year? Really. I must have missed their 10 point deduction. Then again maybe you missed the 2. As in they did go into administration in 2003.

Yes Dean Hoyle wrote of debts at Hudderfield, but he sold his 100% shareholding for far more.

Burnley. Sold to ALK Capital for £170,000,000 in 2020. Not a bad return for the local investors in a well run club.

Preston. Effectively owned by the Hemmings family since Adam was a boy.

Compare the League positions of the four clubs above with the continual psycho-drama of Newport County finances.

Please stop wasting my time and misleading the readers of this board. Try doing a bit of research first.

lowandhard wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:47 pm This is an interesting debate about a perplexingly persistent problem that I think affects both codes and for related but slightly different reasons.
It wasn’t an accident that the club‘s founders included “ County “ in our name, we represented league football in the whole of Monmouthshire and they must have hoped that the surrounding areas would have provided a fair number of spectators over the years. The truth is we did draw people from the Eastern Valley because as a boy I remember coaches leaving the Clarence at Pontypool bound for both the County and our bluebird rivals down the road. What is certainly the case is that transport now is much more problematic now than when I was that 5 year old boy. The Eastern Valley line is gone effectively with Pontypool Station sited nowhere near the town and in any case no service up the valley north to Blaenavon. If you want a drink with your mates then you can’t drive and as for the buses from anywhere to anywhere else, the least said the better. Communications are crap intra and extra city.
Then there’s what I think is the major problem and that sadly is of course money. Add together the cost of tickets, transport, food and drinks and it’s an expensive couple of hours. When you have factored in an often disappointing season with nothing as enticing as what the neutral can experience on his live stream at home then it all adds up to a major no show on a Saturday at RP.
I’m sure ( or rather I imagine ) Mr Jenkins will have lots of good ideas to tempt the pennies out of the pockets of the recalcitrant would be football watchers but I doubt it will add up to a terrace full of new support until we are more successful.
In his quest to advance our position I think he is quite right to concentrate on improving our commercial performance from which success all football bounty will undoubtedly flow. As mentioned elsewhere, once you climb the leagues the rewards are more worthwhile and that’s when the support may ( or may not ) take off. Until that wonderful crock of support at the end of the pyramid rainbow UTC CTID

Jonesy3 wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:57 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 1:55 pm

Jonesy3 wrote: January 5th, 2024, 12:15 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 10:34 am Yes these clubs do have better stadia. These clubs do have more flexible ticket arraingements. That is because they are properly administered.

Now get back to work.

Properly administered??

Preston North End - gross debt of £78m at the end of the last financial year, a £15m increase on the previous year.
Huddersfield Town - had to be saved from administration last year by new owners and whose previous owner wrote off £40m in loans owed to him.
Ipswich Town - placed into administration last year.
Burnley - placed under a transfer embargo last year and were previously the subject of an EFL investigation into their dubious ownership structure.

Why are you making these things up?

Football finances are murky but Ipswich in administration last year? Really. I must have missed their 10 point deduction. Then again maybe you missed the 2. As in they did go into administration in 2003.

Yes Dean Hoyle wrote of debts at Hudderfield, but he sold his 100% shareholding for far more.

Burnley. Sold to ALK Capital for £170,000,000 in 2020. Not a bad return for the local investors in a well run club.

Preston. Effectively owned by the Hemmings family since Adam was a boy.

Compare the League positions of the four clubs above with the continual psycho-drama of Newport County finances.

Please stop wasting my time and misleading the readers of this board. Try doing a bit of research first.

Interesting that a few posts ago you criticised me for being personal. Never mind, water off a duck's back.

So... you've got me on the Ipswich one and that's my mistake for misreading 2003 for 2023 when I was researching so apologies.

However, on the others...

Huddersfield. Not made up. They were literally days away from going into administration last year but were saved from that by a combination of new owners and Hoyle writing off £40m in loans he was owed. That doesn't strike me as a a 'properly administered' club.

Burnley. Not made up. The subject of an EFL investigation into its complex (and I'm being generous with that term) ownership in 2022. The club is owned by Burnley FC Holdings Limited, which is owned by Calder Vale Holdings, which is in turn owned by Jersey-based Velocity Sports Limited, which is owned by US-based ALK Capital and Velocity Sports Partners. The club had a transfer embargo imposed for three months last year due to late filing of accounts. Again, is this a 'properly administered' club?

Preston. Not made up. The club is indeed owned by the Hemmings family and is in debt to them to the tune of £78m as of the last set of accounts, an increase of £15m on the year before. They made a loss of £16m in their last set of accounts, following a loss of £14.6m in 2021. Now, their owners are indeed altruistic but without their £78m of interest-free loans, how would a club (or any business) losing £300,000 a week continue to exist?

The real issue for me is that football at pretty much every level is a financial disaster waiting to happen. The sooner the independent regulator promised by the government in 2021 after the fan-led review into football governance is appointed the better. I'm not holding my breath, though.

aberexile wrote: January 5th, 2024, 4:11 pm

lowandhard wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:47 pm This is an interesting debate about a perplexingly persistent problem that I think affects both codes and for related but slightly different reasons.
It wasn’t an accident that the club‘s founders included “ County “ in our name, we represented league football in the whole of Monmouthshire and they must have hoped that the surrounding areas would have provided a fair number of spectators over the years. The truth is we did draw people from the Eastern Valley because as a boy I remember coaches leaving the Clarence at Pontypool bound for both the County and our bluebird rivals down the road. What is certainly the case is that transport now is much more problematic now than when I was that 5 year old boy. The Eastern Valley line is gone effectively with Pontypool Station sited nowhere near the town and in any case no service up the valley north to Blaenavon. If you want a drink with your mates then you can’t drive and as for the buses from anywhere to anywhere else, the least said the better. Communications are crap intra and extra city.
Then there’s what I think is the major problem and that sadly is of course money. Add together the cost of tickets, transport, food and drinks and it’s an expensive couple of hours. When you have factored in an often disappointing season with nothing as enticing as what the neutral can experience on his live stream at home then it all adds up to a major no show on a Saturday at RP.
I’m sure ( or rather I imagine ) Mr Jenkins will have lots of good ideas to tempt the pennies out of the pockets of the recalcitrant would be football watchers but I doubt it will add up to a terrace full of new support until we are more successful.
In his quest to advance our position I think he is quite right to concentrate on improving our commercial performance from which success all football bounty will undoubtedly flow. As mentioned elsewhere, once you climb the leagues the rewards are more worthwhile and that’s when the support may ( or may not ) take off. Until that wonderful crock of support at the end of the pyramid rainbow UTC CTID

I agree about the trains. Looked at the possibility of going by train for a recent county game. There's a train to Newport from Ebbw Vale, but it gets there via Cardiff and takes 1 hour and 25 minutes. So those from towns near Ebbw Vale would have to get there first. Perhaps locals in that area wouldn't mind going by train if we were a league or two higher?

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 4:33 pm

Jonesy3 wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:57 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 1:55 pm

Jonesy3 wrote: January 5th, 2024, 12:15 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 10:34 am Yes these clubs do have better stadia. These clubs do have more flexible ticket arraingements. That is because they are properly administered.

Now get back to work.

Properly administered??

Preston North End - gross debt of £78m at the end of the last financial year, a £15m increase on the previous year.
Huddersfield Town - had to be saved from administration last year by new owners and whose previous owner wrote off £40m in loans owed to him.
Ipswich Town - placed into administration last year.
Burnley - placed under a transfer embargo last year and were previously the subject of an EFL investigation into their dubious ownership structure.

Why are you making these things up?

Football finances are murky but Ipswich in administration last year? Really. I must have missed their 10 point deduction. Then again maybe you missed the 2. As in they did go into administration in 2003.

Yes Dean Hoyle wrote of debts at Hudderfield, but he sold his 100% shareholding for far more.

Burnley. Sold to ALK Capital for £170,000,000 in 2020. Not a bad return for the local investors in a well run club.

Preston. Effectively owned by the Hemmings family since Adam was a boy.

Compare the League positions of the four clubs above with the continual psycho-drama of Newport County finances.

Please stop wasting my time and misleading the readers of this board. Try doing a bit of research first.

Interesting that a few posts ago you criticised me for being personal. Never mind, water off a duck's back.

So... you've got me on the Ipswich one and that's my mistake for misreading 2003 for 2023 when I was researching so apologies.

However, on the others...

Huddersfield. Not made up. They were literally days away from going into administration last year but were saved from that by a combination of new owners and Hoyle writing off £40m in loans he was owed. That doesn't strike me as a a 'properly administered' club.

Burnley. Not made up. The subject of an EFL investigation into its complex (and I'm being generous with that term) ownership in 2022. The club is owned by Burnley FC Holdings Limited, which is owned by Calder Vale Holdings, which is in turn owned by Jersey-based Velocity Sports Limited, which is owned by US-based ALK Capital and Velocity Sports Partners. The club had a transfer embargo imposed for three months last year due to late filing of accounts. Again, is this a 'properly administered' club?

Preston. Not made up. The club is indeed owned by the Hemmings family and is in debt to them to the tune of £78m as of the last set of accounts, an increase of £15m on the year before. They made a loss of £16m in their last set of accounts, following a loss of £14.6m in 2021. Now, their owners are indeed altruistic but without their £78m of interest-free loans, how would a club (or any business) losing £300,000 a week continue to exist?

The real issue for me is that football at pretty much every level is a financial disaster waiting to happen. The sooner the independent regulator promised by the government in 2021 after the fan-led review into football governance is appointed the better. I'm not holding my breath, though.

No need to apologise for the ipswich mistake.

Look, football finances are murky. But this idea that clubs lose money year in year out but don't go under is simply not possible. Football has been a financial disaster waiting to happen for all the sixty years i have followed the game. But here's the thing,the disaster never happens. How many football league clubs have gone bust over the last sixty years?

Let's try to move on. If you believe the Hemmings family have lost £78,000,000 but nonetheless will not walk away from Preston out of some altruistic desire to do the good people of Preston a good turn, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

But just pause for a moment, in terms of size and economy Huddersfield, Preston, Burnley and Ipswich are similar to Newport. Preston is slightly larger in terms of population, Huddersfield and Ipswich about the same, Burnley a fair bit smaller.

Last seasons average attendance.

Ipswich 27,259.
Burnley 19,776
Preston 15,858
Huddersfield 18,978.

Newport County 4,108.

We have the potential to do so much better. Those figures leave me frustrated. Firstly because they are so low, but moreso that so many find this acceptable.

Bangitintrnet wrote: January 5th, 2024, 4:42 pm

aberexile wrote: January 5th, 2024, 4:11 pm

lowandhard wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:47 pm This is an interesting debate about a perplexingly persistent problem that I think affects both codes and for related but slightly different reasons.
It wasn’t an accident that the club‘s founders included “ County “ in our name, we represented league football in the whole of Monmouthshire and they must have hoped that the surrounding areas would have provided a fair number of spectators over the years. The truth is we did draw people from the Eastern Valley because as a boy I remember coaches leaving the Clarence at Pontypool bound for both the County and our bluebird rivals down the road. What is certainly the case is that transport now is much more problematic now than when I was that 5 year old boy. The Eastern Valley line is gone effectively with Pontypool Station sited nowhere near the town and in any case no service up the valley north to Blaenavon. If you want a drink with your mates then you can’t drive and as for the buses from anywhere to anywhere else, the least said the better. Communications are crap intra and extra city.
Then there’s what I think is the major problem and that sadly is of course money. Add together the cost of tickets, transport, food and drinks and it’s an expensive couple of hours. When you have factored in an often disappointing season with nothing as enticing as what the neutral can experience on his live stream at home then it all adds up to a major no show on a Saturday at RP.
I’m sure ( or rather I imagine ) Mr Jenkins will have lots of good ideas to tempt the pennies out of the pockets of the recalcitrant would be football watchers but I doubt it will add up to a terrace full of new support until we are more successful.
In his quest to advance our position I think he is quite right to concentrate on improving our commercial performance from which success all football bounty will undoubtedly flow. As mentioned elsewhere, once you climb the leagues the rewards are more worthwhile and that’s when the support may ( or may not ) take off. Until that wonderful crock of support at the end of the pyramid rainbow UTC CTID

I agree about the trains. Looked at the possibility of going by train for a recent county game. There's a train to Newport from Ebbw Vale, but it gets there via Cardiff and takes 1 hour and 25 minutes. So those from towns near Ebbw Vale would have to get there first. Perhaps locals in that area wouldn't mind going by train if we were a league or two higher?

I think they have in the last week reopened the link between Ebbw Vale and Newport.

Merthyr tends to be Cardiff, Aberdare the next valley over tends to be Swansea. That's because of the heads of the valleys link to Swansea and their premiership background.

In Newport how many more kids had Leeds kits in the 70's or Liverpool or Man Utd in the 80's and 90's, compared to very few County kits.

That's the past, it can't be changed, it's only the future that should be important, particularly the work with the age group kids, putting pride into the shirt. That's the starting point to garner support that wasn't available before. Nothing to do with population, it's about pride in the shirt, and group participation extending forward into solid support............

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:21 pm

G Guest wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:10 pm The Dragons issued 4,670 tickets for their Christmas match v Scarlets. So on a good day they are doing no better than County. Even if there is little overlap between the football and rugby crowds there are only about 10,000 people attending matches at RP for both codes added together even for popular games. So having a population of 160,000 is not having an affect.

Why do you think that is? If it is because the people of Newport are different from people everywhere else, then there is nothing we can do. If it is because of another reason then something can be done. I refuse to believe that Newportonians are less than others. I don't believe we should accept being losers. I don't understand the hopeless defeatism of some on this board. How about you George?

G Guest wrote: January 5th, 2024, 5:14 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:21 pm

G Guest wrote: January 5th, 2024, 3:10 pm The Dragons issued 4,670 tickets for their Christmas match v Scarlets. So on a good day they are doing no better than County. Even if there is little overlap between the football and rugby crowds there are only about 10,000 people attending matches at RP for both codes added together even for popular games. So having a population of 160,000 is not having an affect.

Why do you think that is? If it is because the people of Newport are different from people everywhere else, then there is nothing we can do. If it is because of another reason then something can be done. I refuse to believe that Newportonians are less than others. I don't believe we should accept being losers. I don't understand the hopeless defeatism of some on this board. How about you George?

As someone suggested I think that the reasons are probably complex and that the common assumption that population is the major factor , although obviously important, oversimplifies the argument. We think that Newport under-performs yet consider the city of Worcester which with a population of over 100 thousand has lost it's professional football of any senior standard and it's professional rugby altogether. And yet the city possesses a modern field sport stadium, Sixways, which is larger than Rodney Parade. Oh, how we could do with Sixways. Newport has professional teams struggling with inadequate stadiums. Worcester has a good stadium and no professional teams.

All I can add is that for years after WW2 the people of Newport did provide 5 figure crowds for football and I guess rugby as well. In 1945/6 County V Wolves at Somerton Park was watched by a crowd in excess of 15 thousand. 10 years later in 1955/56 the best we could muster was 9,000 watching County play Torquay. I watched County play Oldham on a Friday night in 1962 as part of a crowd of 11,000 in an ordinary D4 game, People just seem to have something better to do these days.