Re: Flynn Years

63
George Street-Bridge wrote:None of these points, of course, is one I've made.

FWIW I think a lot of blame lies in leagues being too lax on ownership rules and - not exactly blame - football clubs can and do draw on generations of local affection and goodwill which other dysfunctional businesses can't.
Try answering the question.

If clubs are losing money, year in year out, how do they stay in business?

Re: Flynn Years

64
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
George Street-Bridge wrote:None of these points, of course, is one I've made.

FWIW I think a lot of blame lies in leagues being too lax on ownership rules and - not exactly blame - football clubs can and do draw on generations of local affection and goodwill which other dysfunctional businesses can't.
Try answering the question.

If clubs are losing money, year in year out, how do they stay in business?
Comparing football clubs to normal businesses is pointless. Businesses go bust because people try things and for various reasons they do well, do ok, or they fail, with most businesses failing.

Football clubs stay in business because they constantly get bailed out its a simple as that. mainly because for the societal aspect where people will go over and beyond to save football clubs in a way that they wouldnt do for a normal business where it would be pointless to flog a dead horse.

Then there is the effect of the help football clubs get that other business don’t, not least not having to pay volunteers. Not that i would pay a salary to any of our directors but imagine a business where all the managers who run it work for free. And where people who love the business work for free like volunteers do for football clubs.

You only have to look at our football club as a prime example. We like most clubs would go bust over and over again if it wasn’t for being bailed out. In our case over and over again by the likes of les scalding, by the fans on more than one occasion and so on and so on.

Its that simple really and you just cant compare a football club with a normal commercial business.

Re: Flynn Years

66
County123456789 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
George Street-Bridge wrote:None of these points, of course, is one I've made.

FWIW I think a lot of blame lies in leagues being too lax on ownership rules and - not exactly blame - football clubs can and do draw on generations of local affection and goodwill which other dysfunctional businesses can't.
Try answering the question.

If clubs are losing money, year in year out, how do they stay in business?
Comparing football clubs to normal businesses is pointless. Businesses go bust because people try things and for various reasons they do well, do ok, or they fail, with most businesses failing.

Football clubs stay in business because they constantly get bailed out its a simple as that. mainly because for the societal aspect where people will go over and beyond to save football clubs in a way that they wouldnt do for a normal business where it would be pointless to flog a dead horse.

Then there is the effect of the help football clubs get that other business don’t, not least not having to pay volunteers. Not that i would pay a salary to any of our directors but imagine a business where all the managers who run it work for free. And where people who love the business work for free like volunteers do for football clubs.

You only have to look at our football club as a prime example. We like most clubs would go bust over and over again if it wasn’t for being bailed out. In our case over and over again by the likes of les scalding, by the fans on more than one occasion and so on and so on.

Its that simple really and you just cant compare a football club with a normal commercial business.
George,

If the clubs are losing money they can't pay the bills. If you can't pay your bills you go bust. Somehow all these clubs manage to pay their bills. Which if you're losing money you can't do. And to say clubs get bailed out over and over again is total nonsense.

Anybody who has run a business knows that the number of claims you can make to on paper lower your income is huge. I've never run a football club but I was self employed. This is how it works George.

I needed to read the law reports. My newspapers were therefore tax deductible. I needed a mobile phone for work, my mobile phone was tax deductible. If I went of a trip to Trier on an EU course, that too was tax deductible. (I attended a few lectures but mainly had a holiday on the Mozelle. Tax deductible. And even back then 50p on the mile travelled was deductible from my tax.

In over 20 years at the Bar I made a good living, on paper I was just scraping by . Oddly my late father was self employed. We were not rich but had a very comfortable middle class lifestyle. Guess what. I got a full grant to do my first degree because my father's accountant could show a much lower paper income than was the reality. And of course even the accountant who saves you thousands is tax deductible.

My guess is football clubs are pretty much doing the same.

Re: Flynn Years

67
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
County123456789 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
George Street-Bridge wrote:None of these points, of course, is one I've made.

FWIW I think a lot of blame lies in leagues being too lax on ownership rules and - not exactly blame - football clubs can and do draw on generations of local affection and goodwill which other dysfunctional businesses can't.
Try answering the question.

If clubs are losing money, year in year out, how do they stay in business?
Comparing football clubs to normal businesses is pointless. Businesses go bust because people try things and for various reasons they do well, do ok, or they fail, with most businesses failing.

Football clubs stay in business because they constantly get bailed out its a simple as that. mainly because for the societal aspect where people will go over and beyond to save football clubs in a way that they wouldnt do for a normal business where it would be pointless to flog a dead horse.

Then there is the effect of the help football clubs get that other business don’t, not least not having to pay volunteers. Not that i would pay a salary to any of our directors but imagine a business where all the managers who run it work for free. And where people who love the business work for free like volunteers do for football clubs.

You only have to look at our football club as a prime example. We like most clubs would go bust over and over again if it wasn’t for being bailed out. In our case over and over again by the likes of les scalding, by the fans on more than one occasion and so on and so on.

Its that simple really and you just cant compare a football club with a normal commercial business.
George,

If the clubs are losing money they can't pay the bills. If you can't pay your bills you go bust. Somehow all these clubs manage to pay their bills. Which if you're losing money you can't do. And to say clubs get bailed out over and over again is total nonsense.

Anybody who has run a business knows that the number of claims you can make to on paper lower your income is huge. I've never run a football club but I was self employed. This is how it works George.

I needed to read the law reports. My newspapers were therefore tax deductible. I needed a mobile phone for work, my mobile phone was tax deductible. If I went of a trip to Trier on an EU course, that too was tax deductible. (I attended a few lectures but mainly had a holiday on the Mozelle. Tax deductible. And even back then 50p on the mile travelled was deductible from my tax.

In over 20 years at the Bar I made a good living, on paper I was just scraping by . Oddly my late father was self employed. We were not rich but had a very comfortable middle class lifestyle. Guess what. I got a full grant to do my first degree because my father's accountant could show a much lower paper income than was the reality. And of course even the accountant who saves you thousands is tax deductible.

My guess is football clubs are pretty much doing the same.
Hello Stan

There are a few flaws in your argument that i hope you don’t mind pointing out. Firstly you keep calling me George and my name is Steve! Secondly I do run a business which is now entering is 37th year so have seen it all from a accountancy viewpoint and what can and can be claimed for

Apologies is I’ve missed the jist of the debate but you seemed to be saying that its a mystery why more clubs don’t go bust compared to a normal business. My answer is that football clubs get bailed out ands saved where normal business wouldn’t. Our own club is an example. Lose money, fans bail it out. Lose money Les bails it out. It’s the same for clubs everywhere at our level. Most football clubs lose money but stay alive because its a labour of love to all involved.

Its quite straightforward and far from nonsense, in my view anyway. Plus I respectfully think you may have a lack of understanding of the difference between accounting principles and cash flow.

Re: Flynn Years

68
County123456789 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
County123456789 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
George Street-Bridge wrote:None of these points, of course, is one I've made.

FWIW I think a lot of blame lies in leagues being too lax on ownership rules and - not exactly blame - football clubs can and do draw on generations of local affection and goodwill which other dysfunctional businesses can't.
Try answering the question.

If clubs are losing money, year in year out, how do they stay in business?
Comparing football clubs to normal businesses is pointless. Businesses go bust because people try things and for various reasons they do well, do ok, or they fail, with most businesses failing.

Football clubs stay in business because they constantly get bailed out its a simple as that. mainly because for the societal aspect where people will go over and beyond to save football clubs in a way that they wouldnt do for a normal business where it would be pointless to flog a dead horse.

Then there is the effect of the help football clubs get that other business don’t, not least not having to pay volunteers. Not that i would pay a salary to any of our directors but imagine a business where all the managers who run it work for free. And where people who love the business work for free like volunteers do for football clubs.

You only have to look at our football club as a prime example. We like most clubs would go bust over and over again if it wasn’t for being bailed out. In our case over and over again by the likes of les scalding, by the fans on more than one occasion and so on and so on.

Its that simple really and you just cant compare a football club with a normal commercial business.
George,

If the clubs are losing money they can't pay the bills. If you can't pay your bills you go bust. Somehow all these clubs manage to pay their bills. Which if you're losing money you can't do. And to say clubs get bailed out over and over again is total nonsense.

Anybody who has run a business knows that the number of claims you can make to on paper lower your income is huge. I've never run a football club but I was self employed. This is how it works George.

I needed to read the law reports. My newspapers were therefore tax deductible. I needed a mobile phone for work, my mobile phone was tax deductible. If I went of a trip to Trier on an EU course, that too was tax deductible. (I attended a few lectures but mainly had a holiday on the Mozelle. Tax deductible. And even back then 50p on the mile travelled was deductible from my tax.

In over 20 years at the Bar I made a good living, on paper I was just scraping by . Oddly my late father was self employed. We were not rich but had a very comfortable middle class lifestyle. Guess what. I got a full grant to do my first degree because my father's accountant could show a much lower paper income than was the reality. And of course even the accountant who saves you thousands is tax deductible.

My guess is football clubs are pretty much doing the same.
Hello Stan

There are a few flaws in your argument that i hope you don’t mind pointing out. Firstly you keep calling me George and my name is Steve! Secondly I do run a business which is now entering is 37th year so have seen it all from a accountancy viewpoint and what can and can be claimed for

Apologies is I’ve missed the jist of the debate but you seemed to be saying that its a mystery why more clubs don’t go bust compared to a normal business. My answer is that football clubs get bailed out ands saved where normal business wouldn’t. Our own club is an example. Lose money, fans bail it out. Lose money Les bails it out. It’s the same for clubs everywhere at our level. Most football clubs lose money but stay alive because its a labour of love to all involved.

Its quite straightforward and far from nonsense, in my view anyway. Plus I respectfully think you may have a lack of understanding of the difference between accounting principles and cash flow.
Steve,

Forgive me for meeting both your points and George's in the same reply. However I don't agree with your analysis either.

Les Scadding didn't bail us out. What he did was financed the buying of players, which were able to win promotion to the Football League. My view remains that the monies ploughed into Newport County by Lotto Les would have been much better utilized building up a proper infrastructure.

Secondly bailing out over and over again. Well if fans choose to put some money into the club, that is still income for the club. Your argument is totally flawed because if customers are putting money into your business, they are putting money into your business. Broken down your argument seems to be but for the goodwill of supporters clubs would go bust. Which is true, but that applies to every business. Likewise volunteers. I have no doubt volunteers save clubs money but they don't create income. In terms you might lose money if you didn't have volunteers but as you do you are not losing money.

Further and perhaps more contentiously I would argue that if directors of football clubs only used these extra contributions on fixed assets, i.e. infrastructure rather than wasting assets, i.e. inflated wages for players, football in general would be far healthier.

Cash flow is interesting. There is an awful lot of cash swilling about in football. It is why too many clubs have been swindled. I agree with you if the point you are making is that many potentially going concerns fail because of a problem with cashflow, and I agree football clubs don't by and large have that problem. However regardless of cashflow, if a company is losing money, it will go bust. I agree you can lose money in the occasional year, and I agree that a startup may initially run at a loss, but no business can lose money year in year out and survive.

Finally as you run your own business ask yourself these two questions. And this is for you alone your financial circumstances are none of my business. What is the difference between you gross income and your income declared for tax purposes? And more importantly, how much of my expenditure which you claim as tax deductible, would I have to spend anyway if I were not self employed?

Best wishes,

Brendan

Re: Flynn Years

69
Thank you Steve, for a simple explanation of how potentially insolvent clubs, scrape by, from one season to another. Often supported by the infamous Directors Loans.


County123456789 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
County123456789 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
George Street-Bridge wrote:None of these points, of course, is one I've made.

FWIW I think a lot of blame lies in leagues being too lax on ownership rules and - not exactly blame - football clubs can and do draw on generations of local affection and goodwill which other dysfunctional businesses can't.
Try answering the question.

If clubs are losing money, year in year out, how do they stay in business?
Comparing football clubs to normal businesses is pointless. Businesses go bust because people try things and for various reasons they do well, do ok, or they fail, with most businesses failing.

Football clubs stay in business because they constantly get bailed out its a simple as that. mainly because for the societal aspect where people will go over and beyond to save football clubs in a way that they wouldnt do for a normal business where it would be pointless to flog a dead horse.

Then there is the effect of the help football clubs get that other business don’t, not least not having to pay volunteers. Not that i would pay a salary to any of our directors but imagine a business where all the managers who run it work for free. And where people who love the business work for free like volunteers do for football clubs.

You only have to look at our football club as a prime example. We like most clubs would go bust over and over again if it wasn’t for being bailed out. In our case over and over again by the likes of les scalding, by the fans on more than one occasion and so on and so on.

Its that simple really and you just cant compare a football club with a normal commercial business.
George,

If the clubs are losing money they can't pay the bills. If you can't pay your bills you go bust. Somehow all these clubs manage to pay their bills. Which if you're losing money you can't do. And to say clubs get bailed out over and over again is total nonsense.

Anybody who has run a business knows that the number of claims you can make to on paper lower your income is huge. I've never run a football club but I was self employed. This is how it works George.

I needed to read the law reports. My newspapers were therefore tax deductible. I needed a mobile phone for work, my mobile phone was tax deductible. If I went of a trip to Trier on an EU course, that too was tax deductible. (I attended a few lectures but mainly had a holiday on the Mozelle. Tax deductible. And even back then 50p on the mile travelled was deductible from my tax.

In over 20 years at the Bar I made a good living, on paper I was just scraping by . Oddly my late father was self employed. We were not rich but had a very comfortable middle class lifestyle. Guess what. I got a full grant to do my first degree because my father's accountant could show a much lower paper income than was the reality. And of course even the accountant who saves you thousands is tax deductible.

My guess is football clubs are pretty much doing the same.
Hello Stan

There are a few flaws in your argument that i hope you don’t mind pointing out. Firstly you keep calling me George and my name is Steve! Secondly I do run a business which is now entering is 37th year so have seen it all from a accountancy viewpoint and what can and can be claimed for

Apologies is I’ve missed the jist of the debate but you seemed to be saying that its a mystery why more clubs don’t go bust compared to a normal business. My answer is that football clubs get bailed out ands saved where normal business wouldn’t. Our own club is an example. Lose money, fans bail it out. Lose money Les bails it out. It’s the same for clubs everywhere at our level. Most football clubs lose money but stay alive because its a labour of love to all involved.

Its quite straightforward and far from nonsense, in my view anyway. Plus I respectfully think you may have a lack of understanding of the difference between accounting principles and cash flow.

Re: Flynn Years

70
Stan A. Einstein wrote:Colin,

The claim you made would require you to sit down read and understand the true as opposed to purported financial position of 92 clubs. That is nonsense. Read the thread through. When I realize I have made a mistake I simply acknowledge the fact. Trying to justify a ridiculous claims makes you look ridiculous.

Grow up and get a life.

Now that Steve has corrected your ignorance, an apology will be quite sufficient.

Re: Flynn Years

71
Stan A. Einstein wrote:No Football League club has gone bust in the last 60 years. And yet the majority of clubs lose money every year. That paradox Colin would tend to suggest that either the basic laws of economics are wrong or the figures are massaged.

I rather think it's the latter. And I think even an average 9 year old will be able to follow that. Whilst I'm sure many on here will find the thought of you getting buzzed with the latest financial news of Preston North End amusing I find the thought desperately sad. If you are not being truthful it's pathetic, if you are being truthful it's unbearably sad.

It's amazing what a modicum of research can do to humiliate someone, as a barrister, you should try it sometime, you may win more cases. Oh and further, I'm not sad but simply following sports clubs of interest and potential businesses to acquire. As for your denigration of my idea for the club to run a parallel business to one of ours in the UK, to raise funds for the club, you thought it unworkable. We are well over 2 million dollars pa in revenue, in a market a 1/3 the size of the UK with 2 part-time staff, no external accountants, no outsourcing, working a four day week, 9-4. Perhaps it's worth someone at least having a conversation with me about creating a safe revenue stream for the trust and ultimately for the business.


https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinjones2009/

http://www.gourmetgroceronline.com.au
http://www.trufflestore.com.au
http://www.bathbombworld.com.au
http://www.glitterfairies.com.au
http://www.bathbombmoulds.com
http://www.bath-bomb-world-afterpay.myshopify.com/
Last edited by jonescmj1 on September 28th, 2021, 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Flynn Years

72
jonescmj1 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:No Football League club has gone bust in the last 60 years. And yet the majority of clubs lose money every year. That paradox Colin would tend to suggest that either the basic laws of economics are wrong or the figures are massaged.

I rather think it's the latter. And I think even an average 9 year old will be able to follow that. Whilst I'm sure many on here will find the thought of you getting buzzed with the latest financial news of Preston North End amusing I find the thought desperately sad. If you are not being truthful it's pathetic, if you are being truthful it's unbearably sad.

It's amazing what a modicum of research can do to humiliate someone, as a barrister, you should try it sometime, you may win more cases. Oh and further, I'm not sad but simply following sports clubs of interest and potential businesses to acquire. As for your denigration of my idea for the club to run a parallel business to one of ours in the UK, to raise funds for the club, you thought it unworkable. We are well over 2 million dollars pa in revenue, in a market a 1/3 the size of the UK with 2 part-time staff, no external accountants, no outsourcing, working a four day week, 9-4. Perhaps it's worth someone at least having a conversation with me about creating a safe revenue stream for the trust and ultimately for the business.


https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinjones2009/

http://www.gourmetgroceronline.com.au
http://www.trufflestore.com.au
http://www.bathbombworld.com
http://www.glitterfairies.com.au
http://www.bathbombmoulds.com
http://www.bath-bomb-world-afterpay.myshopify.com/
Colin,

Three points.
First of all my reply to Steve did not humiliate Steve. He put forward an argument, I countered with an argument which pointed out why he was wrong. That's debate.

Secondly I have not denigrated your idea. From what I have seen it seems to depend on people working for nothing. All I would say is that if you could get 1,000 Newport County supporters to work just one hours overtime a week at the relatively low rate for overtime of £10 per hour that would give the club an income of £10,000 a week or £520,000 pa. The problem for your scheme is as you said, you want your cut because as you put it 'I'm nice but I'm not that nice'. Well all football supporters are stupid, paying money to watch grown men kick a ball around a field. We're stupid but when it comes to your scheme, not that stupid. (Yes Colin, now I have denigrated your idea. Not because I think it won't work, although in fairness I don't think it will, but because although you may not realize it, you are attempting to exploit County fans.)

Finally there is no point you and me having a conversation about creating a 'safe revenue stream for the trust and ultimately the business'. You might sell more bathbombs if you had a conversation with the trust directors. They are the people who you need to convince, not me.

Now back to the original point. How do football clubs survive if they make a loss year in year out? My belief is they don't make a loss year in year out. They may run their businesses in such a way as on paper to be close to the edge but the reality is they are solvent.

I have yet to see a coherent argument as to why I am wrong. And I very much doubt I will.

And one little thing to lesson and lessen your ignorance. Nothing will help me win more cases, I retired five years ago. I now live the life of an Irish country gentleman. Paid for by a business that on paper made a loss but in reality didn't.

Re: Flynn Years

73
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
jonescmj1 wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:No Football League club has gone bust in the last 60 years. And yet the majority of clubs lose money every year. That paradox Colin would tend to suggest that either the basic laws of economics are wrong or the figures are massaged.

I rather think it's the latter. And I think even an average 9 year old will be able to follow that. Whilst I'm sure many on here will find the thought of you getting buzzed with the latest financial news of Preston North End amusing I find the thought desperately sad. If you are not being truthful it's pathetic, if you are being truthful it's unbearably sad.

It's amazing what a modicum of research can do to humiliate someone, as a barrister, you should try it sometime, you may win more cases. Oh and further, I'm not sad but simply following sports clubs of interest and potential businesses to acquire. As for your denigration of my idea for the club to run a parallel business to one of ours in the UK, to raise funds for the club, you thought it unworkable. We are well over 2 million dollars pa in revenue, in a market a 1/3 the size of the UK with 2 part-time staff, no external accountants, no outsourcing, working a four day week, 9-4. Perhaps it's worth someone at least having a conversation with me about creating a safe revenue stream for the trust and ultimately for the business.


https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinjones2009/

http://www.gourmetgroceronline.com.au
http://www.trufflestore.com.au
http://www.bathbombworld.com
http://www.glitterfairies.com.au
http://www.bathbombmoulds.com
http://www.bath-bomb-world-afterpay.myshopify.com/
Colin,

Three points.
First of all my reply to Steve did not humiliate Steve. He put forward an argument, I countered with an argument which pointed out why he was wrong. That's debate.

Secondly I have not denigrated your idea. From what I have seen it seems to depend on people working for nothing. All I would say is that if you could get 1,000 Newport County supporters to work just one hours overtime a week at the relatively low rate for overtime of £10 per hour that would give the club an income of £10,000 a week or £520,000 pa. The problem for your scheme is as you said, you want your cut because as you put it 'I'm nice but I'm not that nice'. Well all football supporters are stupid, paying money to watch grown men kick a ball around a field. We're stupid but when it comes to your scheme, not that stupid. (Yes Colin, now I have denigrated your idea. Not because I think it won't work, although in fairness I don't think it will, but because although you may not realize it, you are attempting to exploit County fans.)

Finally there is no point you and me having a conversation about creating a 'safe revenue stream for the trust and ultimately the business'. You might sell more bathbombs if you had a conversation with the trust directors. They are the people who you need to convince, not me.

Now back to the original point. How do football clubs survive if they make a loss year in year out? My belief is they don't make a loss year in year out. They may run their businesses in such a way as on paper to be close to the edge but the reality is they are solvent.

I have yet to see a coherent argument as to why I am wrong. And I very much doubt I will.

And one little thing to lesson and lessen your ignorance. Nothing will help me win more cases, I retired five years ago. I now live the life of an Irish country gentleman. Paid for by a business that on paper made a loss but in reality didn't.
So you admit to being a crook, on a messageboard. You couldn't make up such stupidity! :bounce:



Firstly I don't want to be paid anything by the trust if someone is prepared to run the idea in the UK. I did propose a small licensing fee, only so that I could justify my husband's involvement and compensate us for lost revenues, yes we have sales from the US, the UK et.al.

Bathbomworld.com.au is a $1m+. turnover on its own, we run this together with all the other businesses with just the four of us working a four-day week. Gourmet Grocer Online is up for sale, to alleviate the pressure on us.

My personal will leaves a substantial legacy to the club, which I intend to be donating a long time from now. Approaches to the club have proved useless as I think they believe I'm crazy. They may be correct, but they should at least try evaluating the concept. Think Lush margins without the overhead. Their accounts are readily available online.

Brendan, we are on the same side with one major exception, I lead from the front, you shout from the sidelines, working together we could give the club some ongoing revenue stream Draw up an NDA and I'll readily share with you, how this could work!


The full name of the company is 'The Gourmet Grocer Balmain Pty Ltd'.

Regards

Colin

Re: Flynn Years

74
Colin,

I don't think that your scheme will work. It seems to rely on using volunteers in order to make a profit. Nonetheless I genuinely hope I'm wrong and I certainly make no criticism of your trying to raise funds.

I won't be able to assist you in drawing up an NDA. I was an immigration and criminal defence lawyer. I simply don't have the skill set. If I did have those drafting skills I still wouldn't because I would be liable if I were to make a mistake. When I was in practise I had to pay thousands of pounds to indemnify myself. And this is where I believe that you don't think things through. Two reasons why I could not under any circumstances assist you.

You see the upside, in that there is a lawyer who supports Newport County. You fail to see the downside in that I can't help and in the real world if you want a legal document drawn up you are going to have to pay for it. My fear is that there are always hidden costs in any business venture. You seem to have a mindset where these can be overcome by using the goodwill of County supporters. In my opinion that is just wishful thinking.

Finally. And please take this in the spirit in which it's sent. You are very thin skinned and get upset when difficulties are pointed out to you. I certainly don't think that you are crazy but if your idea does have legs you need to persuade people and take them with you. During the course of this thread you have stated I have been humiliated, called me stupid and a crook. You then ask me to help you. Don't worry about that, I was called much worse by my mother and she loved me. But if you take that attitude with the directors of the trust you're not going to endear yourself to your proposed business partners.

Best of luck though in any event.

Brendan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: OLDCROMWELLIAN