CathedralCounty wrote: June 15th, 2022, 12:25 pm

UPTHEPORT wrote: June 15th, 2022, 12:01 pm It's 8 seconds if the players want to do it respect it if they don't respect that

BUT the issue is players are de facto obliged to do it - it’s become an 'official' protest (an oxymoron I know) - as has rainbow laces, etc. the 'football authorities'*, the media, *some* of the twitter mob – condemn/fine/sack players who do not want to follow the obligatory signalling and again in the main think these gestures started from a good place although now they have become a somewhat browbeating stick with which to beat the [perceived] ‘thuggish and Neanderthal football fans’ and we simply do not see the level/length/officially sanctioned gestures in any other sporting codes implying we as ‘football fans’ somehow need to be re-educated…

*The self-same authorities who among other egregious and immoral actions allow Newcastle United to be taken over by [in mine and many’ s view] an abhorrent regime and a world cup to take place in [in mine and many’ s view] an abhorrent regime

Not so there's been games the season just gone where players have stood one game I remember it was ten kneeling one stayed standing no one had a pop at him there have been games where one side didn't the other side did nothing said

UPTHEPORT wrote: June 15th, 2022, 4:27 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: June 15th, 2022, 12:25 pm

UPTHEPORT wrote: June 15th, 2022, 12:01 pm It's 8 seconds if the players want to do it respect it if they don't respect that

BUT the issue is players are de facto obliged to do it - it’s become an 'official' protest (an oxymoron I know) - as has rainbow laces, etc. the 'football authorities'*, the media, *some* of the twitter mob – condemn/fine/sack players who do not want to follow the obligatory signalling and again in the main think these gestures started from a good place although now they have become a somewhat browbeating stick with which to beat the [perceived] ‘thuggish and Neanderthal football fans’ and we simply do not see the level/length/officially sanctioned gestures in any other sporting codes implying we as ‘football fans’ somehow need to be re-educated…

*The self-same authorities who among other egregious and immoral actions allow Newcastle United to be taken over by [in mine and many’ s view] an abhorrent regime and a world cup to take place in [in mine and many’ s view] an abhorrent regime

Not so there's been games the season just gone where players have stood one game I remember it was ten kneeling one stayed standing no one had a pop at him there have been games where one side didn't the other side did nothing said

Not so I turned my back on the knee resisting the urge to boo and was called a racist lol living in the port with a black girlfriend it's utter bollocks as I say it will stop at Qatar because the knee benders will only do it where over here but will totally shit out where it matters as I say virtue signalling hipocrits of the top order can't wait to see Harry kanes rainbow arm band and the rainbow laces etc ......... prob b a long wait for that likely as not next season when it's safe for them to do so

Cool story bro you forgot your black mate

What black mate ?

CathedralCounty wrote: June 15th, 2022, 3:57 pm The biggest irony or is that schadenfreude is that Southgate et al at the FA and all the English/UK media seemed to focus far more on some Hungarians booing the 'knee' in a way that was and for reasons that were allegedly 'racist' than the fact that England (oh the irony of playing ‘behind closed doors’ themselves for poor fan* behaviour) might just be not that great at football after all and Hungary (oh those ghastly right wing simply awful Hungarians I truly weep for them!) may in fact be rather good.

*I’ll correct myself - not often I stick up for England fans but the drunken thugs who stormed Wembley at the Euro 2020 final were NOT football fans they were drunken thugs

I have to disagree. They were football fans who also happened to be drunken thugs. My original point was, if a country like the Netherlands who have far more BAME players than Wales, don’t feel the need to take the knee, why do Wales & England continue to do do? The gesture is trite in the extreme. Are they so scared of being called racist by the left-wing media like the BBC?

Dogger wrote: June 15th, 2022, 11:40 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: June 15th, 2022, 3:57 pm The biggest irony or is that schadenfreude is that Southgate et al at the FA and all the English/UK media seemed to focus far more on some Hungarians booing the 'knee' in a way that was and for reasons that were allegedly 'racist' than the fact that England (oh the irony of playing ‘behind closed doors’ themselves for poor fan* behaviour) might just be not that great at football after all and Hungary (oh those ghastly right wing simply awful Hungarians I truly weep for them!) may in fact be rather good.

*I’ll correct myself - not often I stick up for England fans but the drunken thugs who stormed Wembley at the Euro 2020 final were NOT football fans they were drunken thugs

I have to disagree. They were football fans who also happened to be drunken thugs. My original point was, if a country like the Netherlands who have far more BAME players than Wales, don’t feel the need to take the knee, why do Wales & England continue to do do? The gesture is trite in the extreme. Are they so scared of being called racist by the left-wing media like the BBC?

Exactly it's bullying

I wouldn't call it a trite gesture, but if the intention is to raise awareness then that has been achieved. Where does it go from here? When, if ever, does it stop. Now would seem to be a sensible compromise to avoid the whole idea eventually fizzing out and becoming a cause of friction.

It's unbelievable how so many white men get wound up by a eight second gesture

I certainly don't get wound up about it. I just ignore it, which is probably the same for many. So if it is being ignored, maybe it has run its course.

UPTHEPORT wrote: June 16th, 2022, 8:55 am It's unbelievable how so many white men get wound up by a eight second gesture

I could be cheeky and say how do you know people are 'white'? or don't have connections via family or marriage to BAME communities? (of the latter I imagine many on here do) I think people are just unconvinced that this gesture has any impact and has simply become 'meh' and I know its a trope that footballers are unthinking and 'thick' (some are most are not) but if you asked the average professional player why they were doing it they would say because its part of the protocol i.e., they have to - its become mechanical and meaningless and is no longer a 'protest'.

Equally as I've said many are frustrated and insulted by the implication that 1) football fans are especially 'racist' and need to be re-educated 2) that the UK is in itself fundamentally 'racist' which surveys and recent reports, and anecdotal evidence shows that it is simply not - racists and racism exists in both football and the UK itself but neither are fundamentally racist. Essentially the ‘knee’ comes out of critical race theory* which to me and many is completely flawed and in itself racist so cannot and will not support it on those grounds also along with the fact that the issues around race and racism experienced in the US simply do not exist in the same way in the UK – we are far more integrated society where class [money] and education is a far more divisive factor.

*Essentially that all white people are racist and if they say they are not they definitely are – its more nuanced than that but that’s it in a nutshell.

So what is the harm with players taking the knee as I've said not everyone does it and no one gets on their backs about it

I just think it would have more impact if it was periodically shelved and then reintroduced.

I thought it was interesting that our supporters largely embraced it rather than have certain section of the fans boo it. I heard some minimal booing at the Morecambe play off final and then nothing at RP, just warm applause. Personally I don't agree with the politics behind BLM as an organisation but I'm happy to applaud the gesture of the players kneeling for a few seconds before KO if it's purely a sign of solidarity against racism in the game.

I would divorce Black Lives Matter as an organisation completely from the theme that black lives matter. They just share the handle.

I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.