I don't disagree with any of the motives behind taking the knee.

That said players taking the knee and taking the cash in Qatar strikes me as hypocrisy.

And another point is imagine as a protest against the UK's stated policy of sending people of colour to Rwanda, and let's face it I doubt we'll ever see any white Ukrainians flown of to Africa in a Jumbo jet, all foreign teams as a gesture of defiance lowered their shorts and mooned the crowd during Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, and God save the Queen, well you get my point.

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:58 am I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.

On the Rwanda thing I personally think it just won't work and is a gigantic waste of money - and on that seems very odd, sexist even, that its fine to send single males but not single females? either Rwanda is safe or it isn't...I don't think its 'colonialism' though if anything Rwanda are getting the better end of the deal to the tune of millions of pounds.

CathedralCounty wrote: June 16th, 2022, 11:35 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:58 am I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.

On the Rwanda thing I personally think it just won't work and is a gigantic waste of money - and on that seems very odd, sexist even, that its fine to send single males but not single females? either Rwanda is safe or it isn't...I don't think its 'colonialism' though if anything Rwanda are getting the better end of the deal to the tune of millions of pounds.

I guess Rwanda only wants males of working age, who will work to support family elsewhere, rather than whole families seeking asylum. For Boris it is of course symbolism rather than anything else.
Interesting that he is talking about the UK pulling out of the European Court of Human rights, of which Churchill was a founder. The only other country to have done so is Russia, and so war crimes will go unpunished. But it has European in the title, so must be on the side of the bad boys.

UPTHEPORT wrote: June 15th, 2022, 7:47 pm Cool story bro you forgot your black mate

What are you implying ?

CathedralCounty wrote: June 16th, 2022, 11:35 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:58 am I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.

On the Rwanda thing I personally think it just won't work and is a gigantic waste of money - and on that seems very odd, sexist even, that its fine to send single males but not single females? either Rwanda is safe or it isn't...I don't think its 'colonialism' though if anything Rwanda are getting the better end of the deal to the tune of millions of pounds.

I don't think Rwanda will work but I understand the thought process behind it. For people that are pro illegal migration, how many people should we take into the country? 100, 1000, 100,000? When these illegals come in and get blackmarket jobs paying no tax but still expect free healthcare, education etc at the point of use then is that ok? 40 kids to a classroom, no GP appt for 3 months etc etc.

Chepstow'sFine wrote: June 16th, 2022, 1:13 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: June 16th, 2022, 11:35 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:58 am I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.

On the Rwanda thing I personally think it just won't work and is a gigantic waste of money - and on that seems very odd, sexist even, that its fine to send single males but not single females? either Rwanda is safe or it isn't...I don't think its 'colonialism' though if anything Rwanda are getting the better end of the deal to the tune of millions of pounds.

I don't think Rwanda will work but I understand the thought process behind it. For people that are pro illegal migration, how many people should we take into the country? 100, 1000, 100,000? When these illegals come in and get blackmarket jobs paying no tax but still expect free healthcare, education etc at the point of use then is that ok? 40 kids to a classroom, no GP appt for 3 months etc etc.

People who are pro illegal migration? I'm not sure that is the same as, pro giving shelter to those seeking asylum, while their applications are processed, and if found not to be genuine, then deported.

AFAIK the vast majority of people crossing the channel are not deported, and so are considered legal asylum refugees rather than illegal migrants.

I understand that 100,000 people have made the crossing this year. There will be greater numbers of Ukrainian refugees. And greater still the number of Hong Kong passport holders who are now relocating. I know this to be true because I have two renting a property that I own in Cardiff. They paid the property management company a years rent in advance of moving in, as they were well paid in HK, and will work here when they can get work. So if you like, blame me for immigration, not asylum seeker's.

Chepstow'sFine wrote: June 16th, 2022, 1:13 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: June 16th, 2022, 11:35 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:58 am I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.

On the Rwanda thing I personally think it just won't work and is a gigantic waste of money - and on that seems very odd, sexist even, that its fine to send single males but not single females? either Rwanda is safe or it isn't...I don't think its 'colonialism' though if anything Rwanda are getting the better end of the deal to the tune of millions of pounds.

I don't think Rwanda will work but I understand the thought process behind it. For people that are pro illegal migration, how many people should we take into the country? 100, 1000, 100,000? When these illegals come in and get blackmarket jobs paying no tax but still expect free healthcare, education etc at the point of use then is that ok? 40 kids to a classroom, no GP appt for 3 months etc etc.

It is important to distinguish between illegal immigration and asylum. Now although a refugee is in many respects redundant because the test to be granted leave to remain in the UK is easier to reach via Article 3 of the European Convention on Human rights 1950 than under the 1952 Refugee Convention. I will deal with that later.

However what is important is a very nuanced distinction. That is a refugee is recognised because they are a refugee. They do not become a refugee because they are recognised.

In terms, if I have fled persecution, and my home State is either unable or unwilling to offer me a proper standard of protection, as a refugee I am entitled to avail myself of the protection of a contracting State.

Fleeing war by the way, doesn't make you a refugee. It is not a convention reason. Ukrainians fleeing are probably not refugees. They would though succeed under Article 3 of the European Convention on Human rights.

Rwanda is a gimmick. First of all if you are prepared to risk your life in a tiny raft or in the back of a lorry, you are not likely to be deterred by a minuscule chance of being removed to Rwanda. You do the maths. If a 1000 people enter the UK every day, and they often do, a weekly flight to Africa will at most remove 400 of 7,000. That leaves 6,300. Another 1,000 people enter you now remove 400 of 13,400. The following week the next 7,000 come in. So 400 of 20,400 are removed. And so on.

I'm not a politician. So whilst what I'm about to say, wouldn't win me any votes it does happen to be true.
Immigration is unpopular. Some of that is based on racism but some is based on a very real fear that your country is changing and it's resources are finite. What no politician will tell you is the truthful answer to the question of what can be done to stop people ftom poorer parts of the world coming to Europe to make a better life for themselves?

Absolutely nothing.

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 1:28 pm

Chepstow'sFine wrote: June 16th, 2022, 1:13 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: June 16th, 2022, 11:35 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:58 am I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.

On the Rwanda thing I personally think it just won't work and is a gigantic waste of money - and on that seems very odd, sexist even, that its fine to send single males but not single females? either Rwanda is safe or it isn't...I don't think its 'colonialism' though if anything Rwanda are getting the better end of the deal to the tune of millions of pounds.

I don't think Rwanda will work but I understand the thought process behind it. For people that are pro illegal migration, how many people should we take into the country? 100, 1000, 100,000? When these illegals come in and get blackmarket jobs paying no tax but still expect free healthcare, education etc at the point of use then is that ok? 40 kids to a classroom, no GP appt for 3 months etc etc.

People who are pro illegal migration? I'm not sure that is the same as, pro giving shelter to those seeking asylum, while their applications are processed, and if found not to be genuine, then deported.

AFAIK the vast majority of people crossing the channel are not deported, and so are considered legal asylum refugees rather than illegal migrants.

I understand that 100,000 people have made the crossing this year. There will be greater numbers of Ukrainian refugees. And greater still the number of Hong Kong passport holders who are now relocating. I know this to be true because I have two renting a property that I own in Cardiff. They paid the property management company a years rent in advance of moving in, as they were well paid in HK, and will work here when they can get work. So if you like, blame me for immigration, not asylum seeker's.

I think there's a few strawman arguments there. I'm just talking about illegal migrants who've come here via people smuggling crime gangs not genuine refugees/asylum seekers or skilled economic migrants coming here from Hong Kong.

'AFAIK the vast majority of people crossing the channel are not deported, and so are considered legal asylum refugees rather than illegal migrants'

They're not deported because they throw away their identity documents so it's impossible to deport them. They then abscond into the community to work off huge debts to criminal gangs accrued by getting here and enter the black economy and in effect are often modern slaves.

I don't doubt that, and it's sad what people have to do, but as Stan has indicated above, it's still very much a numbers game, played for political reasons.

I understand that figure wise, it is 100,000 "boat people" against 1 million relocating from Hong Kong by the end of the year.

My renters were share dealers, but don't have qualifications to trade in this country, so are willing to get other work. They have a child in University in London, so assume that they will all find work legally eventually, but that is guesswork on my part. However, I do know that they are paying Council Tax, because the Council asked me to pay the missing bit accrued, before they moved in.

Chepstow'sFine wrote: June 16th, 2022, 1:13 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: June 16th, 2022, 11:35 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:58 am I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on this topic. However, when the murder had just happened, there was a protest march in Cardiff that ended with participants taking the knee. My daughter participated with a few of her friends, and while I didn't attend, I thought I would take the knee in my home as a gesture.

I must admit it felt sickening, knowing that I had done it for perhaps a minute, but the actuality was for much longer. I had a much greater personal reaction than simply, a powerful white man, crushing a less powerful black man symbolism that I was expecting, and one I don't wish to repeat.

However politics is all about symbolism, and I can understand that taking the knee can also be seen as simply following the trend,or not, as the case may be.

For me trying to send single males to Rwanda smacks of colonial racism. A symbol of white power over a black country, and I am just as uncomfortable with it.

On the Rwanda thing I personally think it just won't work and is a gigantic waste of money - and on that seems very odd, sexist even, that its fine to send single males but not single females? either Rwanda is safe or it isn't...I don't think its 'colonialism' though if anything Rwanda are getting the better end of the deal to the tune of millions of pounds.

I don't think Rwanda will work but I understand the thought process behind it. For people that are pro illegal migration, how many people should we take into the country? 100, 1000, 100,000? When these illegals come in and get blackmarket jobs paying no tax but still expect free healthcare, education etc at the point of use then is that ok? 40 kids to a classroom, no GP appt for 3 months etc etc.

I happen to be married to a [legal obviously!] immigrant and we have a great tradition in the UK/Wales of taking in immigrants/refugees from Poles post WWII to Ugandan Asians & 'boat people' in the 1970's/80's but I don't condone illegal immigration, that said I don't think its '100,000's' of 'illegals' its a trickle in real terms - isy one of those 'what's to be done' situations and I don't envy decision makers