Re: The lease

16
Said it before and will say it again the Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd, etc. NEED County - yes we need them too and it’s a symbiotic relationship - it may be slightly dysfunctional (aren’t many relationships personal and business?) but nevertheless it is a mutually beneficial one – we’d be funked without them equally they’d be funked without us…I’m not worried tbh because Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd would be in the somewhat politically incorrect use of the word ‘mental’ to kick ‘County out just not gonna happen as the asset of RP must be sweated and the only real way to do that is to have co tenants and the only viable tenant other than Dragons is Newport County and the annuity of income from RP over a period of even 10-15 years would smash anything the owners could get for selling up which would be on the low millions (which given covenants and an economic downturn is highly unlikely in the medium term).

Re: The lease

17
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:51 am Said it before and will say it again the Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd, etc. NEED County - yes we need them too and it’s a symbiotic relationship - it may be slightly dysfunctional (aren’t many relationships personal and business?) but nevertheless it is a mutually beneficial one – we’d be funked without them equally they’d be funked without us…I’m not worried tbh because Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd would be in the somewhat politically incorrect use of the word ‘mental’ to kick ‘County out just not gonna happen as the asset of RP must be sweated and the only real way to do that is to have co tenants and the only viable tenant other than Dragons is Newport County and the annuity of income from RP over a period of even 10-15 years would smash anything the owners could get for selling up which would be on the low millions (which given covenants and an economic downturn is highly unlikely in the medium term).
If we assume you are correct with your analysis of a symbiotic relationship.

Rodney Parade lasted for well over 100 years without any rental income from Newport County. If at some future time the interests of Newport County and the WRU don't coincide then ask yourself, who has to leave?.

Now ask yourself this. If Notts County, Luton Town, Doncaster Rovers, Exeter City et al can be relegated to the National/Conference League don't you think it could happen to us? And if the WRU want to put in an artificial pitch at Rodney Parade that's a problem. Look at our gates in a promotion season from the Conference. Can we pay the rent if attendances fall below 2,000?

Do you want our future to be in the control of others?

If the WRU were happy to screw over Newport RFC do you think they would have the slightest problem screwing over Newport County?

No, neither do I.

Re: The lease

18
Bangitintrnet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:41 am
Taunton Iron Cider wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:09 am If I saw an opportunity for buying a discounted parcel of City centre land, my preference would always be to acquire it without any encumbrances. Allegedly Mr Buttress is refusing to sign any written agreement that would secure County’s long term future at RP, why do you think that someone you believe, or hope, to be altruistic would be adopting that stance?

Mr Buttress has shown himself to be a brilliant and extremely successful businessman, and it will be in his DNA to continue adding to his wealth. The change in the EFL rules no longer requiring a 10 year tenure at RP has, I fear, allowed the County Board to relax their focus, to the point where we now operate on a season to season basis. This weakness in our position is ripe for exploitation, particularly if the Dragons were to follow the normal route of continuous loss making concerns and fold.

My overriding concern is that the County’s Board is no match for the Dragons HIMAR! We all saw what happened between Coventry FC and the Wasp’s

As an aside, I see that following the Dragon’s rebranding, and despite the County providing a very significant income stream to RP, we still only merit minor billing on the ground signage, akin to that of NRFC who have moved out!
What opportunity is there? The Ground is not for sale without the Dragon's.
Also it is not in David Buttress' gift to sign anything, Rodney Parade is owned by the WRU.
Mr Buttress is Chairman of WRU Gwent Stadium Limited, so yes I do believe he has the gift to agree terms now, but apparently chooses not to.
You seem to have the inside track on so many of the goings on at County, so do you have any idea why he would be reluctant to exercise his executive powers?

Re: The lease

19
AFAIK he doesn't, it's the managing company for the facilities, the owners are still the WRU.
I can see no reason why the WRU or County are in a better position with an agreement that you can't enforce without taking the court route. A solicitor would disagree, but they don't deal with the practical issues that arise between companies that basically have the same problem I. E. a mutual intrest in keeping costs down, and making RP viable.

Re: The lease

20
Stan A. Einstein wrote: August 4th, 2022, 12:40 pm
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:51 am Said it before and will say it again the Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd, etc. NEED County - yes we need them too and it’s a symbiotic relationship - it may be slightly dysfunctional (aren’t many relationships personal and business?) but nevertheless it is a mutually beneficial one – we’d be funked without them equally they’d be funked without us…I’m not worried tbh because Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd would be in the somewhat politically incorrect use of the word ‘mental’ to kick ‘County out just not gonna happen as the asset of RP must be sweated and the only real way to do that is to have co tenants and the only viable tenant other than Dragons is Newport County and the annuity of income from RP over a period of even 10-15 years would smash anything the owners could get for selling up which would be on the low millions (which given covenants and an economic downturn is highly unlikely in the medium term).
If we assume you are correct with your analysis of a symbiotic relationship.

Rodney Parade lasted for well over 100 years without any rental income from Newport County. If at some future time the interests of Newport County and the WRU don't coincide then ask yourself, who has to leave?.

Now ask yourself this. If Notts County, Luton Town, Doncaster Rovers, Exeter City et al can be relegated to the National/Conference League don't you think it could happen to us? And if the WRU want to put in an artificial pitch at Rodney Parade that's a problem. Look at our gates in a promotion season from the Conference. Can we pay the rent if attendances fall below 2,000?

Do you want our future to be in the control of others?

If the WRU were happy to screw over Newport RFC do you think they would have the slightest problem screwing over Newport County?

No, neither do I.
Did they 'screw over' NRFC or did NRFC pack their bags and decide it was more cost effective for them and better for rugby in Gwent for them to admit defeat that they were no longer as relevant on the Gwent rugby scene as they were 25 years ago? no disrespect to them btw.

On relegation (and in my view crowds would not tank yes they would go down in terms of away fans but I think since 2013 we have gained a new generation of fans who would stick with us) no reason at all why we can’t go down but with exception of the, in my view anomalous, ‘great escape season’, we have not been in any real danger of going down and several times narrowly missed play offs and twice lost in play finals offs too – so we have in fact been among the top teams overall in league 2 we are also a very well run club (as much as I and others gripe) and have a good solid group of sponsors and advocates.

Re: The lease

21
Taunton Iron Cider wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:09 am

Mr Buttress has shown himself to be a brilliant and extremely successful businessman, and it will be in his DNA to continue adding to his wealth. The change in the EFL rules no longer requiring a 10 year tenure at RP has, I fear, allowed the County Board to relax their focus, to the point where we now operate on a season to season basis. This weakness in our position is ripe for exploitation, particularly if the Dragons were to follow the normal route of continuous loss making concerns and fold.
The EFL rules have not changed but there does seem to be some confusion over what they actually are.

The 10 year rule applies to new clubs entering the league - " security of tenure of not less than 10 full Seasons following promotion"

Once you are in the league, the only requirement is - "The Club must have a security of tenure lasting beyond the end of the current season"

We had a 10 years agreement when we entered the league so met that criteria for the one time it has been relevant.

The agreement in place at that time runs just beyond the end of this season so if nothing has changed in the interim, it still meets the requirement for now but we would need to sort something out for next season because - "the League will request at the beginning of each season that each applicable club provide evidence (by way of a copy of a ground share agreement and lease) that they comply with these Regulations."

Re: The lease

22
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:44 pm
Stan A. Einstein wrote: August 4th, 2022, 12:40 pm
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:51 am Said it before and will say it again the Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd, etc. NEED County - yes we need them too and it’s a symbiotic relationship - it may be slightly dysfunctional (aren’t many relationships personal and business?) but nevertheless it is a mutually beneficial one – we’d be funked without them equally they’d be funked without us…I’m not worried tbh because Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd would be in the somewhat politically incorrect use of the word ‘mental’ to kick ‘County out just not gonna happen as the asset of RP must be sweated and the only real way to do that is to have co tenants and the only viable tenant other than Dragons is Newport County and the annuity of income from RP over a period of even 10-15 years would smash anything the owners could get for selling up which would be on the low millions (which given covenants and an economic downturn is highly unlikely in the medium term).
If we assume you are correct with your analysis of a symbiotic relationship.

Rodney Parade lasted for well over 100 years without any rental income from Newport County. If at some future time the interests of Newport County and the WRU don't coincide then ask yourself, who has to leave?.

Now ask yourself this. If Notts County, Luton Town, Doncaster Rovers, Exeter City et al can be relegated to the National/Conference League don't you think it could happen to us? And if the WRU want to put in an artificial pitch at Rodney Parade that's a problem. Look at our gates in a promotion season from the Conference. Can we pay the rent if attendances fall below 2,000?

Do you want our future to be in the control of others?

If the WRU were happy to screw over Newport RFC do you think they would have the slightest problem screwing over Newport County?

No, neither do I.
Did they 'screw over' NRFC or did NRFC pack their bags and decide it was more cost effective for them and better for rugby in Gwent for them to admit defeat that they were no longer as relevant on the Gwent rugby scene as they were 25 years ago? no disrespect to them btw.

On relegation (and in my view crowds would not tank yes they would go down in terms of away fans but I think since 2013 we have gained a new generation of fans who would stick with us) no reason at all why we can’t go down but with exception of the, in my view anomalous, ‘great escape season’, we have not been in any real danger of going down and several times narrowly missed play offs and twice lost in play finals offs too – so we have in fact been among the top teams overall in league 2 we are also a very well run club (as much as I and others gripe) and have a good solid group of sponsors and advocates.
Nice to see a reasoned discussion on this topic without someone telling you what you think, or that the club are Fecked.

Re: The lease

23
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:44 pm
Stan A. Einstein wrote: August 4th, 2022, 12:40 pm
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:51 am

Did they 'screw over' NRFC or did NRFC pack their bags and decide it was more cost effective for them and better for rugby in Gwent for them to admit defeat that they were no longer as relevant on the Gwent rugby scene as they were 25 years ago? no disrespect to them btw.

On relegation (and in my view crowds would not tank yes they would go down in terms of away fans but I think since 2013 we have gained a new generation of fans who would stick with us) no reason at all why we can’t go down but with exception of the, in my view anomalous, ‘great escape season’, we have not been in any real danger of going down and several times narrowly missed play offs and twice lost in play finals offs too – so we have in fact been among the top teams overall in league 2 we are also a very well run club (as much as I and others gripe) and have a good solid group of sponsors and advocates.
I started watching Newport County in the mid 1960's. Of the 92 League clubs which then existed only Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool have not at one time or another been relegated. Now as Paul has pointed out clubs seeking promotiont to the EFL are required to show ownership a lease or a license, giving security of tenure for a 10 year period.

Now if Newport County are like Liverpool, Everton or Arsenal and don't get relegated, ever, then even then the WRU can pull the plug on us. However if we are relegated like the other 89 clubs can I see either the WRU or any new owners of Rodney Parade granting a 10 year license?

Frankly no.

Re: The lease

24
Bangitintrnet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 2:24 pm
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:44 pm
Stan A. Einstein wrote: August 4th, 2022, 12:40 pm
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:51 am Said it before and will say it again the Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd, etc. NEED County - yes we need them too and it’s a symbiotic relationship - it may be slightly dysfunctional (aren’t many relationships personal and business?) but nevertheless it is a mutually beneficial one – we’d be funked without them equally they’d be funked without us…I’m not worried tbh because Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd would be in the somewhat politically incorrect use of the word ‘mental’ to kick ‘County out just not gonna happen as the asset of RP must be sweated and the only real way to do that is to have co tenants and the only viable tenant other than Dragons is Newport County and the annuity of income from RP over a period of even 10-15 years would smash anything the owners could get for selling up which would be on the low millions (which given covenants and an economic downturn is highly unlikely in the medium term).
If we assume you are correct with your analysis of a symbiotic relationship.

Rodney Parade lasted for well over 100 years without any rental income from Newport County. If at some future time the interests of Newport County and the WRU don't coincide then ask yourself, who has to leave?.

Now ask yourself this. If Notts County, Luton Town, Doncaster Rovers, Exeter City et al can be relegated to the National/Conference League don't you think it could happen to us? And if the WRU want to put in an artificial pitch at Rodney Parade that's a problem. Look at our gates in a promotion season from the Conference. Can we pay the rent if attendances fall below 2,000?

Do you want our future to be in the control of others?

If the WRU were happy to screw over Newport RFC do you think they would have the slightest problem screwing over Newport County?

No, neither do I.
Did they 'screw over' NRFC or did NRFC pack their bags and decide it was more cost effective for them and better for rugby in Gwent for them to admit defeat that they were no longer as relevant on the Gwent rugby scene as they were 25 years ago? no disrespect to them btw.

On relegation (and in my view crowds would not tank yes they would go down in terms of away fans but I think since 2013 we have gained a new generation of fans who would stick with us) no reason at all why we can’t go down but with exception of the, in my view anomalous, ‘great escape season’, we have not been in any real danger of going down and several times narrowly missed play offs and twice lost in play finals offs too – so we have in fact been among the top teams overall in league 2 we are also a very well run club (as much as I and others gripe) and have a good solid group of sponsors and advocates.
Nice to see a reasoned discussion on this topic without someone telling you what you think, or that the club are Fecked.
I agree.

I disagree with CathedralCounty's analysis. However s/he makes h points clearly, doesn't make thinks up, doesn't throw put gratuitous insults. Instead putting forward a coherent argument as to why s/he believes I am wrong.

You would be well advised to copy his or her's example.

Re: The lease

25
Stan A. Einstein wrote: August 4th, 2022, 4:46 pm
Bangitintrnet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 2:24 pm
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:44 pm
Stan A. Einstein wrote: August 4th, 2022, 12:40 pm
CathedralCounty wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:51 am Said it before and will say it again the Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd, etc. NEED County - yes we need them too and it’s a symbiotic relationship - it may be slightly dysfunctional (aren’t many relationships personal and business?) but nevertheless it is a mutually beneficial one – we’d be funked without them equally they’d be funked without us…I’m not worried tbh because Dragons/WRU/Rodney Parade Ltd would be in the somewhat politically incorrect use of the word ‘mental’ to kick ‘County out just not gonna happen as the asset of RP must be sweated and the only real way to do that is to have co tenants and the only viable tenant other than Dragons is Newport County and the annuity of income from RP over a period of even 10-15 years would smash anything the owners could get for selling up which would be on the low millions (which given covenants and an economic downturn is highly unlikely in the medium term).
If we assume you are correct with your analysis of a symbiotic relationship.

Rodney Parade lasted for well over 100 years without any rental income from Newport County. If at some future time the interests of Newport County and the WRU don't coincide then ask yourself, who has to leave?.

Now ask yourself this. If Notts County, Luton Town, Doncaster Rovers, Exeter City et al can be relegated to the National/Conference League don't you think it could happen to us? And if the WRU want to put in an artificial pitch at Rodney Parade that's a problem. Look at our gates in a promotion season from the Conference. Can we pay the rent if attendances fall below 2,000?

Do you want our future to be in the control of others?

Did they 'screw over' NRFC or did NRFC pack their bags and decide it was more cost effective for them and better for rugby in Gwent for them to admit defeat that they were no longer as relevant on the Gwent rugby scene as they were 25 years ago? no disrespect to them btw.

On relegation (and in my view crowds would not tank yes they would go down in terms of away fans but I think since 2013 we have gained a new generation of fans who would stick with us) no reason at all why we can’t go down but with exception of the, in my view anomalous, ‘great escape season’, we have not been in any real danger of going down and several times narrowly missed play offs and twice lost in play finals offs too – so we have in fact been among the top teams overall in league 2 we are also a very well run club (as much as I and others gripe) and have a good solid group of sponsors and advocates.
Nice to see a reasoned discussion on this topic without someone telling you what you think, or that the club are Fecked.
I agree.

I disagree with CathedralCounty's analysis. However s/he makes h points clearly, doesn't make thinks up, doesn't throw put gratuitous insults. Instead putting forward a coherent argument as to why s/he believes I am wrong.

You would be well advised to copy his or her's example.
You clearly need to re read your last post.
I quote

"If the WRU were happy to screw over Newport RFC do you think they would have the slightest problem screwing over Newport County?

No, neither do I."

Telling people how they should form an opinion has no place on a forum. All opinions are simply just an opinion, they are neither right or wrong.

Re: The lease

26
Bangitintrnet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 5:13 pm

Telling people how they should form an opinion has no place on a forum. All opinions are simply just an opinion, they are neither right or wrong.
In my opinion Manchester City will finish above Everton in the Premier League this coming season.

People are of course free to believe otherwise and express the opinion that Everton will finish above Manchester City.

Do you think I'm right?

So do I. :grin:

Re: The lease

27
Amberexile wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Taunton Iron Cider wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:09 am

Mr Buttress has shown himself to be a brilliant and extremely successful businessman, and it will be in his DNA to continue adding to his wealth. The change in the EFL rules no longer requiring a 10 year tenure at RP has, I fear, allowed the County Board to relax their focus, to the point where we now operate on a season to season basis. This weakness in our position is ripe for exploitation, particularly if the Dragons were to follow the normal route of continuous loss making concerns and fold.
The EFL rules have not changed but there does seem to be some confusion over what they actually are.

The 10 year rule applies to new clubs entering the league - " security of tenure of not less than 10 full Seasons following promotion"

Once you are in the league, the only requirement is - "The Club must have a security of tenure lasting beyond the end of the current season"

We had a 10 years agreement when we entered the league so met that criteria for the one time it has been relevant.

The agreement in place at that time runs just beyond the end of this season so if nothing has changed in the interim, it still meets the requirement for now but we would need to sort something out for next season because - "the League will request at the beginning of each season that each applicable club provide evidence (by way of a copy of a ground share agreement and lease) that they comply with these Regulations."
The question is what is a lease?
We know that it can't refer to a lease in the defined scense of the landlord and tenant act.

In the meeting that we had when we moved into Rodney Parade, we were informed that the basis of our occupation was use of facilities. For instance if a match was to have a likely attendance of 500 then only the Bisley stand would be open and suitable facilities required for that attendance.
If more were forecast to attend then more sections and more facilities, steward's, etc etc on a set scale. I would describe this as a facility agreement, but it could be classified as a lease in the sense that it provides for calculating the total sum required for hosting each match. I. E. an agreement is in place which details the costs at the start of the season.

Re: The lease

28
Bangitintrnet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm
Amberexile wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Taunton Iron Cider wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:09 am

Mr Buttress has shown himself to be a brilliant and extremely successful businessman, and it will be in his DNA to continue adding to his wealth. The change in the EFL rules no longer requiring a 10 year tenure at RP has, I fear, allowed the County Board to relax their focus, to the point where we now operate on a season to season basis. This weakness in our position is ripe for exploitation, particularly if the Dragons were to follow the normal route of continuous loss making concerns and fold.
The EFL rules have not changed but there does seem to be some confusion over what they actually are.

The 10 year rule applies to new clubs entering the league - " security of tenure of not less than 10 full Seasons following promotion"

Once you are in the league, the only requirement is - "The Club must have a security of tenure lasting beyond the end of the current season"

We had a 10 years agreement when we entered the league so met that criteria for the one time it has been relevant.

The agreement in place at that time runs just beyond the end of this season so if nothing has changed in the interim, it still meets the requirement for now but we would need to sort something out for next season because - "the League will request at the beginning of each season that each applicable club provide evidence (by way of a copy of a ground share agreement and lease) that they comply with these Regulations."
The question is what is a lease?
We know that it can't refer to a lease in the defined scense of the landlord and tenant act.

In the meeting that we had when we moved into Rodney Parade, we were informed that the basis of our occupation was use of facilities. For instance if a match was to have a likely attendance of 500 then only the Bisley stand would be open and suitable facilities required for that attendance.
If more were forecast to attend then more sections and more facilities, steward's, etc etc on a set scale. I would describe this as a facility agreement, but it could be classified as a lease in the sense that it provides for calculating the total sum required for hosting each match. I. E. an agreement is in place which details the costs at the start of the season.
If you really want to know what a lease is can I suggest you read the case of Street v Mountford.[1985]UKHL4.

I have even given you the citation.

Re: The lease

29
Bangitintrnet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:15 pm AFAIK he doesn't, it's the managing company for the facilities, the owners are still the WRU.
I can see no reason why the WRU or County are in a better position with an agreement that you can't enforce without taking the court route. A solicitor would disagree, but they don't deal with the practical issues that arise between companies that basically have the same problem I. E. a mutual intrest in keeping costs down, and making RP viable.
I suggest that you look at the balance sheet for WRU Gwent Stadiums Limited. In that you will note that the ownership of RP sits within that company. You will also note how pivotal Mr Buttress is within that business, also until November 2021 the other influencer was Mr Buttress’s wife.

Re: The lease

30
Taunton Iron Cider wrote: August 4th, 2022, 7:07 pm
Bangitintrnet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 1:15 pm AFAIK he doesn't, it's the managing company for the facilities, the owners are still the WRU.
I can see no reason why the WRU or County are in a better position with an agreement that you can't enforce without taking the court route. A solicitor would disagree, but they don't deal with the practical issues that arise between companies that basically have the same problem I. E. a mutual intrest in keeping costs down, and making RP viable.
I suggest that you look at the balance sheet for WRU Gwent Stadiums Limited. In that you will note that the ownership of RP sits within that company. You will also note how pivotal Mr Buttress is within that business, also until November 2021 the other influencer was Mr Buttress’s wife.
It states in the accounts that the parent company is the WRU who are continuing to provide financial support during covid 19, and that the financial results of WRU GWENT Stadiums is included in the financial results of the WRU. Therefore the company and all of its assets are wholly owned by the WRU.

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