It is very strange that the Welsh government has defended its decision to send Covid patients from hospitals into care homes at the start of the pandemic. This had catastrophic consequences. Earlier this year a High Court judge said that this decision was unlawful in England. That is probably why Mark Drakeford is resisting a call for a Wales specific enquiry into the handling of the Covid crisis. As a lawyer he can see the legal implications.
All this will come out in the wash.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
17Presumably, however to make any other decision required funding that was not made available.pembsexile wrote: October 26th, 2022, 2:06 pm It is very strange that the Welsh government has defended its decision to send Covid patients from hospitals into care homes at the start of the pandemic. This had catastrophic consequences. Earlier this year a High Court judge said that this decision was unlawful in England. That is probably why Mark Drakeford is resisting a call for a Wales specific enquiry into the handling of the Covid crisis. As a lawyer he can see the legal implications.
All this will come out in the wash.
My mother's experience was of being trapped in hospital, because she lived with my Dad in the care home, and while they had restricted abilities to care for themselves each could do bits and pieces that the other couldn't, and with the help of carers just about managed. However my dad passed while my mum was in hospital, and she became bed bound. Because circumstances had changed she spent 8 weeks waiting for a care package suitable for her to return to her care home. The hospital couldn't release her until it was in place, and the service providers had to wait, basically until another death to have the availability to provide the service that she required. Ultimately that didn't match as she had meals prepared and delivered for her, but no one to adjust the hospital bed for her to eat it. I live 40 miles away but did manage to get there to help her (on a rota) with my sister and brother. That was in purpose built accommodation, with wide corridors and doors for wheelchair access, a restaurant on site, lifts etc.
Quite how long someone in the same clinical condition but living on their own would have to wait in hospital for their house to be adapted before waiting for a care package is anyone's guess.
Even waiting for space in a care home is problematic, and it all leads to bedblocking.
The care homes tend to be private, and IMHO need now to be combined with the NHS so that the two can help each other to reduce the bed blocking which unfortunately leads to decisions made during a pandemic.
To learn from it, those decisions have to be seen alongside decisions made elsewhere to solve the same problem, otherwise the best results are not evaluated against the worst.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
18Trouble was in the early stages care homes were not provided with or able to buy proper protective equipment – as a result the close relative who worked in one got very poorly with Covid [not hospitalized] and was in bed for two weeks - in their unit of a local care home I think they said about 7 residents out of about 10 died in a very short space of time - that said these were extremely vulnerable people for whom a nudge of a nasty illness was more than likely to push them over the edge anyway but still.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 26th, 2022, 12:46 pmSending infected patients back to care homes was a decision made in London, there were no resources made available to do anything else. That decision had to be reluctantly followed by all the devolved nations.CathedralCounty wrote: October 26th, 2022, 12:09 pmErm Wales had one of if not the most draconian and ill-judged restrictions in Europe (and yet conversely sent very vulnerable elderly people to their deaths in care homes – FACT a close relative worked in one during covid) and STILL had among the worst outcomes - I'm no little Englander (I'm Welsh) but Wales did not cover themselves in glory health nor economy wise around covid albeit no country did…and as I’ve said I don’t l think ANYONE should be going to the world cup.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 25th, 2022, 11:39 amCathedralCounty wrote: October 24th, 2022, 2:55 pmDoes he even like football? I mean if he had been a massive advocate for it fair enough but he did football down at Christmas around Covid (and bottled it with the rugby - a sport which I like so no bitterness there from me but it was undeniably farcical political grandstanding)...as far as a representative goes don’t think UK/Wales should be sending anyone - as I’ve said before this is at best an anomalous/bizarre and at worst disgraceful sham of a world cup that for all sorts of reasons should never have gone to Qatar.Exile 1976 wrote: October 24th, 2022, 1:37 pm He’s the main man for Wales and him being over there and representing Wales the country & the Welsh people is the right thing.
Oh aye, let’s just the the UK gov to represent Wales
USA qualifying from this group shouldn’t be a surprise as they’re the second highest ranked team in the group.
I can’t say I’m that principled I won’t watch on TV as like Drakey I’m a hypocrite but tbh just can’t get excited about this world cup, Wales are poor and were absolutely spineless in the Euro’s and not great in qualification - nothing I’ve seen suggests we will progress in Qatar (and yes I am a Wales fan) it’s the wrong time of year and its being hosted in a country not geared up to ‘welcome the world’ in any way.
England decided to go into lock down late, and come out early, due to the economy. The UK is bottom of the G7 countries in recovering economic performance from the start of the pandamic.
That worked well then.
In contrast Wales used policies to slow down infections as the best method of recovery.
As far as representing Wales in Qatar, I am unconvinced leaving that to Rishi Sunak /Conservative Party, is likely to have the desired outcome.
My 93 year mother caught covid in Hospital 2 months after she had a fall. She was transferred to a covid ward where we weren't allowed to visit. When recovered, she had to have 3 clear tests before being transferred back to her care home that avoided patient infection, but had staff off infected.
That was what the restrictions were there for, to restrict infection in places where people gathered in order that carers going from patient to patient, and from family to patient were not the source of infection.
Once in a care home the residents were unable to leave their rooms, so infection patient to patient was less likely than from carers and family visits.
Essentially while we all applauded the NHS and a white elephant of a nightingale hospital was built at the costs of millions and well paid doctors got free coffees, taxis and takeaways - care homes and their staff & residents were forgotten or indeed left to rot.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
19Indeed, and long term the care sector needs to be in a place where it can work better with the NHS, however that requires political will from Westminster that isn't likely at present.CathedralCounty wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:23 pmTrouble was in the early stages care homes were not provided with or able to buy proper protective equipment – as a result the close relative who worked in one got very poorly with Covid [not hospitalized] and was in bed for two weeks - in their unit of a local care home I think they said about 7 residents out of about 10 died in a very short space of time - that said these were extremely vulnerable people for whom a nudge of a nasty illness was more than likely to push them over the edge anyway but still.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 26th, 2022, 12:46 pmSending infected patients back to care homes was a decision made in London, there were no resources made available to do anything else. That decision had to be reluctantly followed by all the devolved nations.CathedralCounty wrote: October 26th, 2022, 12:09 pmErm Wales had one of if not the most draconian and ill-judged restrictions in Europe (and yet conversely sent very vulnerable elderly people to their deaths in care homes – FACT a close relative worked in one during covid) and STILL had among the worst outcomes - I'm no little Englander (I'm Welsh) but Wales did not cover themselves in glory health nor economy wise around covid albeit no country did…and as I’ve said I don’t l think ANYONE should be going to the world cup.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 25th, 2022, 11:39 amCathedralCounty wrote: October 24th, 2022, 2:55 pmDoes he even like football? I mean if he had been a massive advocate for it fair enough but he did football down at Christmas around Covid (and bottled it with the rugby - a sport which I like so no bitterness there from me but it was undeniably farcical political grandstanding)...as far as a representative goes don’t think UK/Wales should be sending anyone - as I’ve said before this is at best an anomalous/bizarre and at worst disgraceful sham of a world cup that for all sorts of reasons should never have gone to Qatar.Exile 1976 wrote: October 24th, 2022, 1:37 pm He’s the main man for Wales and him being over there and representing Wales the country & the Welsh people is the right thing.
Oh aye, let’s just the the UK gov to represent Wales
USA qualifying from this group shouldn’t be a surprise as they’re the second highest ranked team in the group.
I can’t say I’m that principled I won’t watch on TV as like Drakey I’m a hypocrite but tbh just can’t get excited about this world cup, Wales are poor and were absolutely spineless in the Euro’s and not great in qualification - nothing I’ve seen suggests we will progress in Qatar (and yes I am a Wales fan) it’s the wrong time of year and its being hosted in a country not geared up to ‘welcome the world’ in any way.
England decided to go into lock down late, and come out early, due to the economy. The UK is bottom of the G7 countries in recovering economic performance from the start of the pandamic.
That worked well then.
In contrast Wales used policies to slow down infections as the best method of recovery.
As far as representing Wales in Qatar, I am unconvinced leaving that to Rishi Sunak /Conservative Party, is likely to have the desired outcome.
My 93 year mother caught covid in Hospital 2 months after she had a fall. She was transferred to a covid ward where we weren't allowed to visit. When recovered, she had to have 3 clear tests before being transferred back to her care home that avoided patient infection, but had staff off infected.
That was what the restrictions were there for, to restrict infection in places where people gathered in order that carers going from patient to patient, and from family to patient were not the source of infection.
Once in a care home the residents were unable to leave their rooms, so infection patient to patient was less likely than from carers and family visits.
Essentially while we all applauded the NHS and a white elephant of a nightingale hospital was built at the costs of millions and well paid doctors got free coffees, taxis and takeaways - care homes and their staff & residents were forgotten or indeed left to rot.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
20And Cardiff the Welsh assembly can't have it both ways either they run certain sectors in Wales or they don't its about spending money better not [always] about asking for more and the public need to be on board too - at the moment its the most socially acceptable dodge to hide assets in order to not pay for care and try telling middle class teachers threatening strikes that its actually care workers who should be getting a rise...Bangitintrnet wrote: October 26th, 2022, 6:36 pmIndeed, and long term the care sector needs to be in a place where it can work better with the NHS, however that requires political will from Westminster that isn't likely at present.CathedralCounty wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:23 pmTrouble was in the early stages care homes were not provided with or able to buy proper protective equipment – as a result the close relative who worked in one got very poorly with Covid [not hospitalized] and was in bed for two weeks - in their unit of a local care home I think they said about 7 residents out of about 10 died in a very short space of time - that said these were extremely vulnerable people for whom a nudge of a nasty illness was more than likely to push them over the edge anyway but still.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 26th, 2022, 12:46 pmSending infected patients back to care homes was a decision made in London, there were no resources made available to do anything else. That decision had to be reluctantly followed by all the devolved nations.CathedralCounty wrote: October 26th, 2022, 12:09 pmErm Wales had one of if not the most draconian and ill-judged restrictions in Europe (and yet conversely sent very vulnerable elderly people to their deaths in care homes – FACT a close relative worked in one during covid) and STILL had among the worst outcomes - I'm no little Englander (I'm Welsh) but Wales did not cover themselves in glory health nor economy wise around covid albeit no country did…and as I’ve said I don’t l think ANYONE should be going to the world cup.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 25th, 2022, 11:39 amCathedralCounty wrote: October 24th, 2022, 2:55 pmDoes he even like football? I mean if he had been a massive advocate for it fair enough but he did football down at Christmas around Covid (and bottled it with the rugby - a sport which I like so no bitterness there from me but it was undeniably farcical political grandstanding)...as far as a representative goes don’t think UK/Wales should be sending anyone - as I’ve said before this is at best an anomalous/bizarre and at worst disgraceful sham of a world cup that for all sorts of reasons should never have gone to Qatar.Exile 1976 wrote: October 24th, 2022, 1:37 pm He’s the main man for Wales and him being over there and representing Wales the country & the Welsh people is the right thing.
Oh aye, let’s just the the UK gov to represent Wales
USA qualifying from this group shouldn’t be a surprise as they’re the second highest ranked team in the group.
I can’t say I’m that principled I won’t watch on TV as like Drakey I’m a hypocrite but tbh just can’t get excited about this world cup, Wales are poor and were absolutely spineless in the Euro’s and not great in qualification - nothing I’ve seen suggests we will progress in Qatar (and yes I am a Wales fan) it’s the wrong time of year and its being hosted in a country not geared up to ‘welcome the world’ in any way.
England decided to go into lock down late, and come out early, due to the economy. The UK is bottom of the G7 countries in recovering economic performance from the start of the pandamic.
That worked well then.
In contrast Wales used policies to slow down infections as the best method of recovery.
As far as representing Wales in Qatar, I am unconvinced leaving that to Rishi Sunak /Conservative Party, is likely to have the desired outcome.
My 93 year mother caught covid in Hospital 2 months after she had a fall. She was transferred to a covid ward where we weren't allowed to visit. When recovered, she had to have 3 clear tests before being transferred back to her care home that avoided patient infection, but had staff off infected.
That was what the restrictions were there for, to restrict infection in places where people gathered in order that carers going from patient to patient, and from family to patient were not the source of infection.
Once in a care home the residents were unable to leave their rooms, so infection patient to patient was less likely than from carers and family visits.
Essentially while we all applauded the NHS and a white elephant of a nightingale hospital was built at the costs of millions and well paid doctors got free coffees, taxis and takeaways - care homes and their staff & residents were forgotten or indeed left to rot.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
21Sorry to hear about your mum and dad.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 26th, 2022, 2:47 pmPresumably, however to make any other decision required funding that was not made available.pembsexile wrote: October 26th, 2022, 2:06 pm It is very strange that the Welsh government has defended its decision to send Covid patients from hospitals into care homes at the start of the pandemic. This had catastrophic consequences. Earlier this year a High Court judge said that this decision was unlawful in England. That is probably why Mark Drakeford is resisting a call for a Wales specific enquiry into the handling of the Covid crisis. As a lawyer he can see the legal implications.
All this will come out in the wash.
My mother's experience was of being trapped in hospital, because she lived with my Dad in the care home, and while they had restricted abilities to care for themselves each could do bits and pieces that the other couldn't, and with the help of carers just about managed. However my dad passed while my mum was in hospital, and she became bed bound. Because circumstances had changed she spent 8 weeks waiting for a care package suitable for her to return to her care home. The hospital couldn't release her until it was in place, and the service providers had to wait, basically until another death to have the availability to provide the service that she required. Ultimately that didn't match as she had meals prepared and delivered for her, but no one to adjust the hospital bed for her to eat it. I live 40 miles away but did manage to get there to help her (on a rota) with my sister and brother. That was in purpose built accommodation, with wide corridors and doors for wheelchair access, a restaurant on site, lifts etc.
Quite how long someone in the same clinical condition but living on their own would have to wait in hospital for their house to be adapted before waiting for a care package is anyone's guess.
Even waiting for space in a care home is problematic, and it all leads to bedblocking.
The care homes tend to be private, and IMHO need now to be combined with the NHS so that the two can help each other to reduce the bed blocking which unfortunately leads to decisions made during a pandemic.
To learn from it, those decisions have to be seen alongside decisions made elsewhere to solve the same problem, otherwise the best results are not evaluated against the worst.
Bed blocking is a political issue. A continuous fight between the NHS and the Local Authority who are responsible for social care.
It can be resolved but requires money and a big decision to be made by the PM and Cabinet. They need to build social care homes as part of the hospital annex. It doesn’t have to be on site but close to. It could be staffed by the NHS but at a level that we see in Care homes. This would free up hospital beds immediately and reduce hospital waiting times. Will it happen? I doubt it. Too much political infighting.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
22Close relative who works in the NHS in a ward caring for elderly patients - bed blocking$ is THE biggest issue alongside chronic and dangerously low staffing levels I’m told they sigh at the end of each shift and in typical medical black humor say ‘well at least we didn’t kill anyone today’ (or more appositely nobody died) may be unfair but the general consensus among clinical staff is that the admin is appalling and need a good gee up - a lot of this can be fixed not with yet more wasted millions but a few tweaks and some innovative thinking – many/most elderly people who have a nasty ‘fall’ don’t want to be chucked in a home they want to go HOME – a better organised system could help them, society and actually save millions – just needs some innovative thinking and for the real on the ground staff to be listened to.pembsexile wrote: October 27th, 2022, 9:34 amSorry to hear about your mum and dad.Bangitintrnet wrote: October 26th, 2022, 2:47 pmPresumably, however to make any other decision required funding that was not made available.pembsexile wrote: October 26th, 2022, 2:06 pm It is very strange that the Welsh government has defended its decision to send Covid patients from hospitals into care homes at the start of the pandemic. This had catastrophic consequences. Earlier this year a High Court judge said that this decision was unlawful in England. That is probably why Mark Drakeford is resisting a call for a Wales specific enquiry into the handling of the Covid crisis. As a lawyer he can see the legal implications.
All this will come out in the wash.
My mother's experience was of being trapped in hospital, because she lived with my Dad in the care home, and while they had restricted abilities to care for themselves each could do bits and pieces that the other couldn't, and with the help of carers just about managed. However my dad passed while my mum was in hospital, and she became bed bound. Because circumstances had changed she spent 8 weeks waiting for a care package suitable for her to return to her care home. The hospital couldn't release her until it was in place, and the service providers had to wait, basically until another death to have the availability to provide the service that she required. Ultimately that didn't match as she had meals prepared and delivered for her, but no one to adjust the hospital bed for her to eat it. I live 40 miles away but did manage to get there to help her (on a rota) with my sister and brother. That was in purpose built accommodation, with wide corridors and doors for wheelchair access, a restaurant on site, lifts etc.
Quite how long someone in the same clinical condition but living on their own would have to wait in hospital for their house to be adapted before waiting for a care package is anyone's guess.
Even waiting for space in a care home is problematic, and it all leads to bedblocking.
The care homes tend to be private, and IMHO need now to be combined with the NHS so that the two can help each other to reduce the bed blocking which unfortunately leads to decisions made during a pandemic.
To learn from it, those decisions have to be seen alongside decisions made elsewhere to solve the same problem, otherwise the best results are not evaluated against the worst.
Bed blocking is a political issue. A continuous fight between the NHS and the Local Authority who are responsible for social care.
It can be resolved but requires money and a big decision to be made by the PM and Cabinet. They need to build social care homes as part of the hospital annex. It doesn’t have to be on site but close to. It could be staffed by the NHS but at a level that we see in Care homes. This would free up hospital beds immediately and reduce hospital waiting times. Will it happen? I doubt it. Too much political infighting.
The politicians always bang about ‘diversity’ but they fail to listen to the predominantly female and ethnic minority care/nursing/domestic/other clinical staff and go off on some hair brained scheme. I don’t criticize Welsh Labour for the fun of it – it’s clear the NHS in Wales is and was pre covid in a mess and it’s not simply about the big bad ‘Tories’ not giving little old Wales enough money but the appalling mismanagement of the money we do have.
Few back of the fag packet ideas;
*drop any/all diversity training and well paid trainers a luxury we neither need nor can afford
*Scrap NHS funding ivf/gender reassignment – luxuries (on ivf we should channel some of the money saved into adoption services)
*pay rises for lower grades first
*sort out the Grange hospital and NEVER build such an out of the way and badly designed hospital again (a huge baws up by NHS Wales)
$an awful term as it implies these people want to be there – they don’t.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
23The problem in the UK and this isn't a problem unique to the UK is this. Being a rich country does no good at all if most of the money is in the hands of too few people. In terms you have the people serving the economy rather than the economy serving the people.
The money exists to properly fund the health service. The money exists to build carehomes and to employ staff at a good wage. Or you can choose to remove banker's bonuses, allow 'non dom' status for the very rich. And you have to level with people. If you are in work whilst you can pay 19p in the £, and have sh!te public services a better option would be to 21p in the £ and not have older people dying needlessly.
The trouble is not just the Tories. New Labour told you a terrible lie. Taxes are what you pay to have a decent society. There is no third way. Unfortunately the 'haves' look after their own interests. Or at least what they believe is their own best interests. As Neil Kinnock said, don't get old, don't get sick.
The money exists to properly fund the health service. The money exists to build carehomes and to employ staff at a good wage. Or you can choose to remove banker's bonuses, allow 'non dom' status for the very rich. And you have to level with people. If you are in work whilst you can pay 19p in the £, and have sh!te public services a better option would be to 21p in the £ and not have older people dying needlessly.
The trouble is not just the Tories. New Labour told you a terrible lie. Taxes are what you pay to have a decent society. There is no third way. Unfortunately the 'haves' look after their own interests. Or at least what they believe is their own best interests. As Neil Kinnock said, don't get old, don't get sick.
Last edited by Stan A. Einstein on October 27th, 2022, 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
24Agreed. I won't be watching the WC on principal and hate Drakeford for his COVID response and M4 relief road decision.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
25Despite our obvious common support of the County and an example of supporers diversity, I take the complete opposite view, and will watch the WC on principal and praise Drakeford for his COVID response and M4 relef road decision.Chepstow'sFine wrote: October 27th, 2022, 1:19 pm Agreed. I won't be watching the WC on principal and hate Drakeford for his COVID response and M4 relief road decision.
Having said that ,I'm not in favour of his decision to go to Qatar.
Re: Mark Drakeford travelling to Qatar for World Cup
26https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0d63621OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: October 27th, 2022, 3:07 pmDespite our obvious common support of the County and an example of supporers diversity, I take the complete opposite view, and will watch the WC on principal and praise Drakeford for his COVID response and M4 relef road decision.Chepstow'sFine wrote: October 27th, 2022, 1:19 pm Agreed. I won't be watching the WC on principal and hate Drakeford for his COVID response and M4 relief road decision.
Having said that ,I'm not in favour of his decision to go to Qatar.
This was an interesting documentary, explaining the M4 diversion decision in more detail.
Basically if we keep improving roads, all we actually achieve is a bottleneck elsewhere.
Also 25% of the Welsh population do not own a car and would prefer the money spent on better public transport services.
Working from home, fuel prices, reduction in car journeys, all help an integrated transport network, as can be seen in London.
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