Re: Women's football
138I have to partly agree, women's football needs men involved (or is better with male involvement which gives a mix of expertise and in many cases because there just aren't enough female referees, coaches, etc and men have always been very supportive and helped enable women and girls to play football - its rarely mums who set up & coach girls teams its nearly always dads) and I think men will be increasingly less willing to work or volunteer in/around women's football and women's football will suffer for it.
Sadly nowadays we so uncharitably view any misstep by men that men are increasingly protecting themselves against this - football whether paid or a volunteer, coach or ref is unforgiving enough even at the lowest levels so why add in the hassle of being male in women's football if the slightest misstep or allegation could ruin your life?
For those who say 'its simple - just don't kiss a female player' well OK but what about a male coach patting a female youth player on lower back as 'OK Jen - go out and do you stuff <instinctive back pat>' - a coach maneuvering players around in training and accidentally brushes the bum/chest of a player? a coach accidentally walks in on a naked player, etc. even without the risk of false/nefarious allegations ('coach didn't pick me enough I missed out on being scouted to a US college or WSL club - I accuse him of pinching my bum or worse') there are a whole raft of unfortunate scenarios that could arise.
Re: Women's football
139CathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 11:53 amI have to partly agree, women's football needs men involved (or is better with male involvement which gives a mix of expertise and in many cases because there just aren't enough female referees, coaches, etc and men have always been very supportive and helped enable women and girls to play football - its rarely mums who set up & coach girls teams its nearly always dads) and I think men will be increasingly less willing to work or volunteer in/around women's football and women's football will suffer for it.
Sadly nowadays we so uncharitably view any misstep by men that men are increasingly protecting themselves against this - football whether paid or a volunteer, coach or ref is unforgiving enough even at the lowest levels so why add in the hassle of being male in women's football if the slightest misstep or allegation could ruin your life?
For those who say 'its simple - just don't kiss a female player' well OK but what about a male coach patting a female youth player on lower back as 'OK Jen - go out and do you stuff <instinctive back pat>' - a coach maneuvering players around in training and accidentally brushes the bum/chest of a player? a coach accidentally walks in on a naked player, etc. even without the risk of false/nefarious allegations ('coach didn't pick me enough I missed out on being scouted to a US college or WSL club - I accuse him of pinching my bum or worse') there are a whole raft of unfortunate scenarios that could arise.
You’re probably a nice guy, but fuuuuck me , you do come across as a bit of a wrong ‘un
Re: Women's football
140Read today that the chief executive of the PFA has taken up the cause of women's football. I'd never heard of him - Maheta Molongo. Take a look at his wiki page. Was there ever a better example of a failed career as a footballer?
Re: Women's football
141How so? - OK re reading it my scenarios are bit a colorful but I'm pointing out that IF as appears to be the case women’s football is going to have its 'metoo' moment why would any man risk involvement? – thankfully 99% of women in football are not OTT feminists but the 1% that are spoil it for everyone and tend to hijack a cause and then move on to another one with trail of destruction in its wake.Exile 1976 wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:08 pmCathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 11:53 amI have to partly agree, women's football needs men involved (or is better with male involvement which gives a mix of expertise and in many cases because there just aren't enough female referees, coaches, etc and men have always been very supportive and helped enable women and girls to play football - its rarely mums who set up & coach girls teams its nearly always dads) and I think men will be increasingly less willing to work or volunteer in/around women's football and women's football will suffer for it.
Sadly nowadays we so uncharitably view any misstep by men that men are increasingly protecting themselves against this - football whether paid or a volunteer, coach or ref is unforgiving enough even at the lowest levels so why add in the hassle of being male in women's football if the slightest misstep or allegation could ruin your life?
For those who say 'its simple - just don't kiss a female player' well OK but what about a male coach patting a female youth player on lower back as 'OK Jen - go out and do you stuff <instinctive back pat>' - a coach maneuvering players around in training and accidentally brushes the bum/chest of a player? a coach accidentally walks in on a naked player, etc. even without the risk of false/nefarious allegations ('coach didn't pick me enough I missed out on being scouted to a US college or WSL club - I accuse him of pinching my bum or worse') there are a whole raft of unfortunate scenarios that could arise.
You’re probably a nice guy, but fuuuuck me , you do come across as a bit of a wrong ‘un
As I’ve I said before the rare but genuine recalcitrant horrible [to use your words] wrong 'uns need to be weeded out but not at the expense of the decent honest men who either unintentionally misstep or are outright falsely accused. A lot of men have retreated from youth/social work, teaching, nursing, etc for many reasons but among them the risk of having their actions grossly misrepresented or the rarer but nonetheless very real risk of false allegations.
Fact is in a sports environment trust is key and for 99.9% of men in a sports environment women are just athletes and bodies are just bodies (vice versa with women involved in men's or mixed sports) and as sure as women need to trust that men won't abuse their position men also need to be sure that they wont be thrown under the bus.
So I just don’t think women’s football is well served by grievance feminism – even if we don’t care a jot about the men whose lives are ruined we should care about the girls and women who will miss out on the support and expertise of men who decide not to get involved or leave women’s football because of the climate of fear which could arise (as it did and does across many other businesses).
Re: Women's football
142Agree with you on this as a fellow wrong 'un.CathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:53 pmHow so? - OK re reading it my scenarios are bit a colorful but I'm pointing out that IF as appears to be the case women’s football is going to have its 'metoo' moment why would any man risk involvement? – thankfully 99% of women in football are not OTT feminists but the 1% that are spoil it for everyone and tend to hijack a cause and then move on to another one with trail of destruction in its wake.Exile 1976 wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:08 pmCathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 11:53 amI have to partly agree, women's football needs men involved (or is better with male involvement which gives a mix of expertise and in many cases because there just aren't enough female referees, coaches, etc and men have always been very supportive and helped enable women and girls to play football - its rarely mums who set up & coach girls teams its nearly always dads) and I think men will be increasingly less willing to work or volunteer in/around women's football and women's football will suffer for it.
Sadly nowadays we so uncharitably view any misstep by men that men are increasingly protecting themselves against this - football whether paid or a volunteer, coach or ref is unforgiving enough even at the lowest levels so why add in the hassle of being male in women's football if the slightest misstep or allegation could ruin your life?
For those who say 'its simple - just don't kiss a female player' well OK but what about a male coach patting a female youth player on lower back as 'OK Jen - go out and do you stuff <instinctive back pat>' - a coach maneuvering players around in training and accidentally brushes the bum/chest of a player? a coach accidentally walks in on a naked player, etc. even without the risk of false/nefarious allegations ('coach didn't pick me enough I missed out on being scouted to a US college or WSL club - I accuse him of pinching my bum or worse') there are a whole raft of unfortunate scenarios that could arise.
You’re probably a nice guy, but fuuuuck me , you do come across as a bit of a wrong ‘un
As I’ve I said before the rare but genuine recalcitrant horrible [to use your words] wrong 'uns need to be weeded out but not at the expense of the decent honest men who either unintentionally misstep or are outright falsely accused. A lot of men have retreated from youth/social work, teaching, nursing, etc for many reasons but among them the risk of having their actions grossly misrepresented or the rarer but nonetheless very real risk of false allegations.
Fact is in a sports environment trust is key and for 99.9% of men in a sports environment women are just athletes and bodies are just bodies (vice versa with women involved in men's or mixed sports) and as sure as women need to trust that men won't abuse their position men also need to be sure that they wont be thrown under the bus.
So I just don’t think women’s football is well served by grievance feminism – even if we don’t care a jot about the men whose lives are ruined we should care about the girls and women who will miss out on the support and expertise of men who decide not to get involved or leave women’s football because of the climate of fear which could arise (as it did and does across many other businesses).
Re: Women's football
143I know you’re being flippant but often when people hear unconformable truths, they act out. Listen I get that none of us want to believe that there are people capable of making false accusations or deliberately inflating a person’s actions into something they are not but sadly it happens far more than we might think usually from women/girls towards men/boys. I'm not saying it’s a massive conspiracy (it isn’t) BUT there are political/identity/charity groups and individuals which do hook onto these cases for their own ends*.Chepstow'sFine wrote: September 12th, 2023, 10:13 pmAgree with you on this as a fellow wrong 'un.CathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:53 pmHow so? - OK re reading it my scenarios are bit a colorful but I'm pointing out that IF as appears to be the case women’s football is going to have its 'metoo' moment why would any man risk involvement? – thankfully 99% of women in football are not OTT feminists but the 1% that are spoil it for everyone and tend to hijack a cause and then move on to another one with trail of destruction in its wake.Exile 1976 wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:08 pmCathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 11:53 amI have to partly agree, women's football needs men involved (or is better with male involvement which gives a mix of expertise and in many cases because there just aren't enough female referees, coaches, etc and men have always been very supportive and helped enable women and girls to play football - its rarely mums who set up & coach girls teams its nearly always dads) and I think men will be increasingly less willing to work or volunteer in/around women's football and women's football will suffer for it.
Sadly nowadays we so uncharitably view any misstep by men that men are increasingly protecting themselves against this - football whether paid or a volunteer, coach or ref is unforgiving enough even at the lowest levels so why add in the hassle of being male in women's football if the slightest misstep or allegation could ruin your life?
For those who say 'its simple - just don't kiss a female player' well OK but what about a male coach patting a female youth player on lower back as 'OK Jen - go out and do you stuff <instinctive back pat>' - a coach maneuvering players around in training and accidentally brushes the bum/chest of a player? a coach accidentally walks in on a naked player, etc. even without the risk of false/nefarious allegations ('coach didn't pick me enough I missed out on being scouted to a US college or WSL club - I accuse him of pinching my bum or worse') there are a whole raft of unfortunate scenarios that could arise.
You’re probably a nice guy, but fuuuuck me , you do come across as a bit of a wrong ‘un
As I’ve I said before the rare but genuine recalcitrant horrible [to use your words] wrong 'uns need to be weeded out but not at the expense of the decent honest men who either unintentionally misstep or are outright falsely accused. A lot of men have retreated from youth/social work, teaching, nursing, etc for many reasons but among them the risk of having their actions grossly misrepresented or the rarer but nonetheless very real risk of false allegations.
Fact is in a sports environment trust is key and for 99.9% of men in a sports environment women are just athletes and bodies are just bodies (vice versa with women involved in men's or mixed sports) and as sure as women need to trust that men won't abuse their position men also need to be sure that they wont be thrown under the bus.
So I just don’t think women’s football is well served by grievance feminism – even if we don’t care a jot about the men whose lives are ruined we should care about the girls and women who will miss out on the support and expertise of men who decide not to get involved or leave women’s football because of the climate of fear which could arise (as it did and does across many other businesses).
Fact is that in many professions, especially teaching men are at a high risk of false or inflated actions of abuse/misconduct (google 'falsely accused teachers' - some surveys suggest 1 in 4) and it’d be a great shame if that crept into women’s sports where men are involved - ultimately, it’d be women and girls who’d lose out if men retreated because of this issue. Again we might not care about the poor bloke wrongly labelled (to use your words) a ‘wrong un’ or worse but we should care about the women and girls who’d lose out on the help, support, refereeing & coaching of men.
*Its no coincidence that within a short time of the 'kiss' occurring the Spanish women’s league players went on strike for first two games of season over a pay dispute - these types of overblown 'incidents'/allegations are a gift some *some* interest groups/charities/individuals – again not a conspiracy but is a factor albeit more so for the higher profile cases.
Re: Women's football
144Yep, I'm with you on all of your points. I believe in Blackstone's ratio - 'Better that 10 guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer' and I don't think we have that right now in the UK criminal justice system.CathedralCounty wrote: September 13th, 2023, 9:15 amI know you’re being flippant but often when people hear unconformable truths, they act out. Listen I get that none of us want to believe that there are people capable of making false accusations or deliberately inflating a person’s actions into something they are not but sadly it happens far more than we might think usually from women/girls towards men/boys. I'm not saying it’s a massive conspiracy (it isn’t) BUT there are political/identity/charity groups and individuals which do hook onto these cases for their own ends*.Chepstow'sFine wrote: September 12th, 2023, 10:13 pmAgree with you on this as a fellow wrong 'un.CathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:53 pmHow so? - OK re reading it my scenarios are bit a colorful but I'm pointing out that IF as appears to be the case women’s football is going to have its 'metoo' moment why would any man risk involvement? – thankfully 99% of women in football are not OTT feminists but the 1% that are spoil it for everyone and tend to hijack a cause and then move on to another one with trail of destruction in its wake.Exile 1976 wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:08 pmCathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 11:53 amI have to partly agree, women's football needs men involved (or is better with male involvement which gives a mix of expertise and in many cases because there just aren't enough female referees, coaches, etc and men have always been very supportive and helped enable women and girls to play football - its rarely mums who set up & coach girls teams its nearly always dads) and I think men will be increasingly less willing to work or volunteer in/around women's football and women's football will suffer for it.
Sadly nowadays we so uncharitably view any misstep by men that men are increasingly protecting themselves against this - football whether paid or a volunteer, coach or ref is unforgiving enough even at the lowest levels so why add in the hassle of being male in women's football if the slightest misstep or allegation could ruin your life?
For those who say 'its simple - just don't kiss a female player' well OK but what about a male coach patting a female youth player on lower back as 'OK Jen - go out and do you stuff <instinctive back pat>' - a coach maneuvering players around in training and accidentally brushes the bum/chest of a player? a coach accidentally walks in on a naked player, etc. even without the risk of false/nefarious allegations ('coach didn't pick me enough I missed out on being scouted to a US college or WSL club - I accuse him of pinching my bum or worse') there are a whole raft of unfortunate scenarios that could arise.
You’re probably a nice guy, but fuuuuck me , you do come across as a bit of a wrong ‘un
As I’ve I said before the rare but genuine recalcitrant horrible [to use your words] wrong 'uns need to be weeded out but not at the expense of the decent honest men who either unintentionally misstep or are outright falsely accused. A lot of men have retreated from youth/social work, teaching, nursing, etc for many reasons but among them the risk of having their actions grossly misrepresented or the rarer but nonetheless very real risk of false allegations.
Fact is in a sports environment trust is key and for 99.9% of men in a sports environment women are just athletes and bodies are just bodies (vice versa with women involved in men's or mixed sports) and as sure as women need to trust that men won't abuse their position men also need to be sure that they wont be thrown under the bus.
So I just don’t think women’s football is well served by grievance feminism – even if we don’t care a jot about the men whose lives are ruined we should care about the girls and women who will miss out on the support and expertise of men who decide not to get involved or leave women’s football because of the climate of fear which could arise (as it did and does across many other businesses).
Fact is that in many professions, especially teaching men are at a high risk of false or inflated actions of abuse/misconduct (google 'falsely accused teachers' - some surveys suggest 1 in 4) and it’d be a great shame if that crept into women’s sports where men are involved - ultimately, it’d be women and girls who’d lose out if men retreated because of this issue. Again we might not care about the poor bloke wrongly labelled (to use your words) a ‘wrong un’ or worse but we should care about the women and girls who’d lose out on the help, support, refereeing & coaching of men.
*Its no coincidence that within a short time of the 'kiss' occurring the Spanish women’s league players went on strike for first two games of season over a pay dispute - these types of overblown 'incidents'/allegations are a gift some *some* interest groups/charities/individuals – again not a conspiracy but is a factor albeit more so for the higher profile cases.
Re: Women's football
145Playing devil's advocate. If that philosophy were applied to our forthcoming speed limit cars would be shuffling around at 5mph. There HAS to be a balance.Chepstow'sFine wrote: September 13th, 2023, 10:33 am I believe in Blackstone's ratio - 'Better that 10 guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer' and I don't think we have that right now in the UK criminal justice system.
Re: Women's football
146'Blackstone's ratio' - if applied to your analogy 10 cars would be doing 28 mph and get away with it but better that than the one doing 20.000001 mph getting 'done' (its a bad analogy as speeding is a civil offence and much easier to prove than almost any other offence).JonD wrote: September 13th, 2023, 1:32 pmPlaying devil's advocate. If that philosophy were applied to our forthcoming speed limit cars would be shuffling around at 5mph. There HAS to be a balance.Chepstow'sFine wrote: September 13th, 2023, 10:33 am I believe in Blackstone's ratio - 'Better that 10 guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer' and I don't think we have that right now in the UK criminal justice system.
My point sits a little outside 'Blackstone's ratio' in that its more about not putting men off working with women's sports (as they have been in say teaching - due to the prevalence of false/overblown allegations) as much as it is about false/overblown allegations being made.
Re: Women's football
147This is an absolute minefield. I remember late on in my career I was a prescribing pharmacist often using a consulting room where patients wished for better confidentiality about sensitive issues like birth control, vaginal infections etc. I was chatting one day to a detective sergeant regarding controlled drugs matters when he witnessed me taking a patient into the room to carry out such a consultation. He told me afterwards that I was lucky that over the years I hadn’t had a spurious accusation of some sort and advised to ensure I avoided it. I must confess it had never occurred to me before but from then on I either insisted on a female technician being present or the door to the dispensary was left open so that they could see what was happening.CathedralCounty wrote: September 13th, 2023, 9:15 amI know you’re being flippant but often when people hear unconformable truths, they act out. Listen I get that none of us want to believe that there are people capable of making false accusations or deliberately inflating a person’s actions into something they are not but sadly it happens far more than we might think usually from women/girls towards men/boys. I'm not saying it’s a massive conspiracy (it isn’t) BUT there are political/identity/charity groups and individuals which do hook onto these cases for their own ends*.Chepstow'sFine wrote: September 12th, 2023, 10:13 pmAgree with you on this as a fellow wrong 'un.CathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:53 pmHow so? - OK re reading it my scenarios are bit a colorful but I'm pointing out that IF as appears to be the case women’s football is going to have its 'metoo' moment why would any man risk involvement? – thankfully 99% of women in football are not OTT feminists but the 1% that are spoil it for everyone and tend to hijack a cause and then move on to another one with trail of destruction in its wake.Exile 1976 wrote: September 12th, 2023, 3:08 pmCathedralCounty wrote: September 12th, 2023, 11:53 amI have to partly agree, women's football needs men involved (or is better with male involvement which gives a mix of expertise and in many cases because there just aren't enough female referees, coaches, etc and men have always been very supportive and helped enable women and girls to play football - its rarely mums who set up & coach girls teams its nearly always dads) and I think men will be increasingly less willing to work or volunteer in/around women's football and women's football will suffer for it.
Sadly nowadays we so uncharitably view any misstep by men that men are increasingly protecting themselves against this - football whether paid or a volunteer, coach or ref is unforgiving enough even at the lowest levels so why add in the hassle of being male in women's football if the slightest misstep or allegation could ruin your life?
For those who say 'its simple - just don't kiss a female player' well OK but what about a male coach patting a female youth player on lower back as 'OK Jen - go out and do you stuff <instinctive back pat>' - a coach maneuvering players around in training and accidentally brushes the bum/chest of a player? a coach accidentally walks in on a naked player, etc. even without the risk of false/nefarious allegations ('coach didn't pick me enough I missed out on being scouted to a US college or WSL club - I accuse him of pinching my bum or worse') there are a whole raft of unfortunate scenarios that could arise.
You’re probably a nice guy, but fuuuuck me , you do come across as a bit of a wrong ‘un
As I’ve I said before the rare but genuine recalcitrant horrible [to use your words] wrong 'uns need to be weeded out but not at the expense of the decent honest men who either unintentionally misstep or are outright falsely accused. A lot of men have retreated from youth/social work, teaching, nursing, etc for many reasons but among them the risk of having their actions grossly misrepresented or the rarer but nonetheless very real risk of false allegations.
Fact is in a sports environment trust is key and for 99.9% of men in a sports environment women are just athletes and bodies are just bodies (vice versa with women involved in men's or mixed sports) and as sure as women need to trust that men won't abuse their position men also need to be sure that they wont be thrown under the bus.
So I just don’t think women’s football is well served by grievance feminism – even if we don’t care a jot about the men whose lives are ruined we should care about the girls and women who will miss out on the support and expertise of men who decide not to get involved or leave women’s football because of the climate of fear which could arise (as it did and does across many other businesses).
Fact is that in many professions, especially teaching men are at a high risk of false or inflated actions of abuse/misconduct (google 'falsely accused teachers' - some surveys suggest 1 in 4) and it’d be a great shame if that crept into women’s sports where men are involved - ultimately, it’d be women and girls who’d lose out if men retreated because of this issue. Again we might not care about the poor bloke wrongly labelled (to use your words) a ‘wrong un’ or worse but we should care about the women and girls who’d lose out on the help, support, refereeing & coaching of men.
*Its no coincidence that within a short time of the 'kiss' occurring the Spanish women’s league players went on strike for first two games of season over a pay dispute - these types of overblown 'incidents'/allegations are a gift some *some* interest groups/charities/individuals – again not a conspiracy but is a factor albeit more so for the higher profile cases.
In the matter of sport, given the current publicity, a man would be taking a big chance to take the job on I reckon. I can see what the problem is, how the hell you solve it is another matter. I guess many people would think it just wasn’t worth the risk of being falsely accused. What a shame.
Re: Women's football
148I'm sorry but this whole nonsense about men having to be within the whole women's set up is bullshit. There are plenty of female ex-players capable of coaching or managing women's teams. The suggestions here from some posters belong in the 1950's...
Re: Women's football
149Speaking as a male within this profession, I would suggest re-thinking where you get your surveys from, because that is complete nonsense.CathedralCounty wrote: September 13th, 2023, 9:15 amI know you’re being flippant but often when people hear unconformable truths, they act out. Listen I get that none of us want to believe that there are people capable of making false accusations or deliberately inflating a person’s actions into something they are not but sadly it happens far more than we might think usually from women/girls towards men/boys. I'm not saying it’s a massive conspiracy (it isn’t) BUT there are political/identity/charity groups and individuals which do hook onto these cases for their own ends*.
Fact is that in many professions, especially teaching men are at a high risk of false or inflated actions of abuse/misconduct (google 'falsely accused teachers' - some surveys suggest 1 in 4) and it’d be a great shame if that crept into women’s sports where men are involved - ultimately, it’d be women and girls who’d lose out if men retreated because of this issue. Again we might not care about the poor bloke wrongly labelled (to use your words) a ‘wrong un’ or worse but we should care about the women and girls who’d lose out on the help, support, refereeing & coaching of men.
I did a quick google and it seems that this pay dispute preceded the World Cup and the alleged assault and is centred around the minimum salary for players. Apparently, they are looking for an increase from 16,000 euros to 23,000 euros, with a further increase if further sponsorship is reached. Here's an article from March, for example:*Its no coincidence that within a short time of the 'kiss' occurring the Spanish women’s league players went on strike for first two games of season over a pay dispute - these types of overblown 'incidents'/allegations are a gift some *some* interest groups/charities/individuals – again not a conspiracy but is a factor albeit more so for the higher profile cases.
https://www.football-espana.net/2023/03 ... e-proposal
Considering they just won a World Cup, I think they might be due a pay rise.
Re: Women's football
150Absolutely but as with female refs, volunteers, coaches and physiotherapists in the men’s game bringing new ideas and expertise [to the men’s game], so men do to the women’s game indeed surely a “1950’s” attitude is keeping the sexes segregated?wattsville_boy wrote: September 13th, 2023, 5:09 pm I'm sorry but this whole nonsense about men having to be within the whole women's set up is bullshit. There are plenty of female ex-players capable of coaching or managing women's teams. The suggestions here from some posters belong in the 1950's...
[edit] it’s also a numbers game, more men are and will be involved in and keen to be involved in football than women, that may change but it will take a few decades if it does so for now the women’s & girl’s game does need men.
Last edited by CathedralCounty on September 13th, 2023, 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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